.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[The Guide]

Man got vasectomy and wife still got pregnant. Baby even had different color skin than their other children. Definitely a bullet failure as they weren't blanks.

Jay

 

[TaperPin]

Right? I was just as floored to see it. It resulted in a dead antelope, yet it was amazing to see something like that when it should have been a bang flop. Not sure how to explain it

Must have been one of those strange things.

One year we did see a 270 bullet barely expand on an antelope - probably ordinary Federal 130 gr since it was popular at that time. If I’m remembering it right, it entered between ribs, so we assumed it just didn’t encounter a lot of resistance, but it was weird.

 

[Choupique]

found the separated jacket under the offside hide, no exit and no blood trail but by your logic that's unacceptable performance?!?

Correct.

I posted a picture earlier. Where i hunt, once a deer is off the right of way you literally have to be standing over it to see it. Dependence on bang-flops or extremely short tracks is not as reliable a method of recovery as a big hole all the way through for me and my situation and therefore, not acceptable.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Ok.

With the ELD-X thread- do you actually believe 2 inches of muscle is stoping a 143gr bullet doing mid 2,000 fps? Ignore the pictures and the posts, just ask yourself if that is a thing.

Here’s the quote you asked for.

When I hear a logical thought process I’ll follow it.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Can you qoute that?




Can you quote that too? Or is it an inability to follow a logical thought process and look at evidence presented?


This is post below highlights a couple of the many issues with those “pictures”. You are intelligent enough to follow the exact same though process and reasoning as @HandgunHTR, if you just can’t stand to follow the many other peoples processes and reasoning, and see that the event as laid out, did not happen.

Except you can see light at the end of the neck/spine junction. Stevie wonder could see it. And the bruising is on the same side in the same general area. I know these threads just chap your ass so bad it hurts!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Well in one breath we hear, “pictures or it didn’t happen”, then we hear “Ignore the pictures and the posts”. Sometimes I feel like I’m listening to a Kamala speech.

I think you're reading what you want to read in general...

I only have a grand total of a whopping 3 big game .224 kills, yet get "chastised" as being apart of "the small bullet crowd" by the giant and decades long "bigger is better echo chamber".

Never once have I said "smaller bullets are more effective at killing" yet, because I ask folks simple questions like "what is your personal experience with killing with smaller bullets and what evidence to backup your claims do you have?" I am suddenly placed into some sort of "close minded small caliber group". That's an interesting take to me.

When those questions are asked, those folks usually go silent, or make broad claims like "don't shoot a moose with a .224 and if you do, don't go anywhere near the shoulder." Or they turn passive aggressive like you often do and resort to broad stoke name calling and "hinting" style insults. While I personally think most of those are funny, as I like joking around, some folks see it as them being "attacked" and it provokes further "argument" (whatever that even means on the internet with typed out words).

I think the idea of this thread is excellent, and would love to see/try to analyze "splashes and blow ups". I do, however, think putting the "calibers" in the title makes little sense. I'd like to see them from all diameters.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I think you're reading what you want to read in general...

I only have a grand total of a whopping 3 big game .224 kills, yet get "chastised" as being apart of "the small bullet crowd" by the giant and decades long "bigger is better echo chamber".

Never once have I said "smaller bullets are more effective at killing" yet, because I ask folks simple questions like "what is your personal experience with killing with smaller bullets and what evidence to backup your claims do you have?" I am suddenly placed into some sort of "close minded small caliber group". That's an interesting take to me.

When those questions are asked, those folks usually go silent, or make broad claims like "don't shoot a moose with a .224 and if you do, don't go anywhere near the shoulder." Or they turn passive aggressive like you often do and resort to broad stoke name calling and "hinting" style insults. While I personally think most of those are funny, as I like joking around, some folks see it as them being "attacked" and it provokes further "argument" (whatever that even means on the internet with typed out words).

I think the idea of this thread is excellent, and would love to see/try to analyze "splashes and blow ups".

Fair! I can’t argue with anything you posted. My issue is that this thread is started asking for examples and it’s a dog pile by the small caliber crowd. Why the need to vehemently defend the small calibers (not directed at your personally)?

 

[bigbuckdj]

Where i hunt, once a deer is off the right of way you literally have to be standing over it to see it. Dependence on bang-flops or extremely short tracks is not as reliable a method of recovery as a big hole all the way through for me and my situation and therefore, not acceptable

Just curious, what are you shooting for best results here? I come in peace, just genuinely curious.

 

[bmart2622]

Correct.

I posted a picture earlier. Where i hunt, once a deer is off the right of way you literally have to be standing over it to see it. Dependence on bang-flops or extremely short tracks is not as reliable a method of recovery as a big hole all the way through for me and my situation and therefore, not acceptable.

Ok got it!! An animal dying in 5 seconds is unacceptable!!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

So this has nothing to do with bullets. It’s two ways of relaying the exact same and 100% true story that I hope illustrate why many people want either extensive details or photos. One example I feel like provides enough relevant details and info to get the full context. The other is all opinion but provides nothing for anyone else to understand the context. I think many folks who are challenged on a post are challenged quite rightly due to simply not providing anywhere close to enough info to illustrate the conclusion. Not all. But many.

Example 1: I shot a deer this weekend with a bow at 20 yards, broadside, from a tree stand. Shot went high based on lighted nock and observed impact, entrance I believe was high lung directly above front leg, so exit should have been mid lung. Initially I did not think the arrow passed through because I saw it protruding from the off side as it turned and ran. However, I did find the arrow 30 feet past there, good blood end to end, but two of the 4 blades (so one full blade-piece, slick trick magnum broadhead) had both blades broken off. I did not recover the deer. I spent a total of 4 hours following blood trail. Also had a dog tracker came and look, despite reasonaly good carnage at several points aling the trail, the blood trail became very sporadic and due to the cover extremely difficult to follow. We hit a creek we couldnt cross after 230 yards of trailing And called it quits. I went back the next AM and continued the search in daylight without finding another spot of blood. Takeaways: first deer ive shot in a long time that wasnt buried in the dirt just past the deer. Speculate due to “barely pass through”, long trail and diminishing blood, broken blades and abrasion-marks on arrow shaft that I hit shoulder blade possibly forward of the lungs or just clipped a lung. Unsure of whether to call this a broadhead success or failure. Photo below shows first blood found 30 yards into the trail, as well as a good representation of the cover we trailed it thru.

View attachment 782827




Example 2: i tried slick tricks, Id stay away. Worked a few times until it didnt. Pretty easy shot, maybe a touch high but should have been a dead deer, it broke blades and never found it. Never again.

This is exactly what I was trying to convey but I suck at explaining things and typing on the internet.

Example 1 is what we need here. Example 2 is likely all we will see unless folks demand more information like in Example 1. It's not "questioning someone's integrity" or "trying to hurt somebody's feelings" in any way. Saying you've killed 100's of deer and every single deer ever has "left a blood trail" is an example 2 that we don't need in here.

 

[zdc1775]

I'm not as experienced as some here (only killed around 130 ish deer maybe 150 wild hogs and one elk using mostly the calibers listed in the thread title but several others up to 458 Lott as well) but I have experienced what I would call a bullet failure, meaning the bullet did not perform the same as it had every other time I used it to kill anything.

That one was a 142 SMK out of a 6.5-284 at around 2,900 fps mv, deer was shot almost perfectly broadside at 125 yards which puts the impact velocity around 2700 fps and ran about 75 yards before dropping dead. While field dressing/processing the deer, the bullet showed zero signs of expansion or upset. It entered between the ribs on the near side, penciled through both lungs and the top of the heart, and exited between the ribs on the off side leaving a roughly caliber sized hole the entire way.

Normally with those bullets I would see 2-4 inches of penetration and then the bullet would tumble or fragment leaving nothing but pulverized lung/heart tissue. So whether that one example was due to a tougher bullet or a softer deer, it "failed" to perform as expected based off the previous 6 or 7 animals shot with it.

 

[Choupique]

what are you shooting for best results here?

Lots of different stuff. Mostly a .338 win mag these days because it's my favorite rifle to hunt with right now. Don't think the bullet really matters with deer and that thing. Haven't caught one yet, but only 7 deer to it so far from spitting distance to 250 yards. I'll never tell anyone it's a good choice for deer hunting, but I have fun using it.

What I've had good reliability with was 180gr partitions in .30-06 (only one failed to exit I remember), a few different. 30-30 170gr round nose, 155gr lapua mega in 6.5x55, .45-70 soft points of any flavor, 225 gr accubonds in 35 whelen, 250gr core locts in 35 whelen, 150gr soft points in .270, probably some other ones in the past that I can't recall right now. Basically anything meant for controlled expansion at moderate speeds has served me well.

 

[Formidilosus]

Here’s the quote you asked for.

When I hear a logical thought process I’ll follow it.

Context matters, but not with you.

Do you ever enter a discussion with an honest desire to come to a factual conclusion, or is it always passive aggressive, childish name calling?

 

[Choupique]

An animal dying in 5 seconds is unacceptable!!

Deer can go a ways in 5 seconds. I was pretty clear about what's acceptable to me and why, as well as a good explanation of why some people don't like what the slide now considers to be ideal performance. Some people are going to call a fragmented or core slipped bullet a failed bullet regardless of what happens. I think that's what the vast majority of bullet failure reports are coming from.

 

[KHntr]

That’s why “failure” must be defined. Having been apart of a lot of terminal ballistics testing and animal killing, a projectile skipping (on bone generally) wouldn’t be considered a failure, as all bullets do it at times. That would be a shoulder shrug event with a “ehh it happens”.

Good point.
I take failure to mean “put it where it should go, and the critter wasn’t going to die from it.”

In hundreds of critters I’ve shot or personally observed the shot and necropsy, that is the only one I can remember “failing”.

 

[Formidilosus]

Except you can see light at the end of the neck/spine junction.

Hmm.

Stevie wonder could see it. And the bruising is on the same side in the same general area.

I don’t think you know anything by what you post. Bruising is in the same general area? What you write makes it hard to believe that you have ever taken your own animals apart and looked inside.


This wound is mid line of the chest cavity (approximately the 4th or 5th rib)





Which would put it about here-

I know these threads just chap your ass so bad it hurts!

“Chaps my ass”? Do you behave like a teenager in day to day life, or is it just internet persona for you?

 

[HighUintas]

This thread needs to be retitled with a different opening post so that it's actually productive.

Discussing bullet impact anomalies with the available evidence from the event can be educational.

Limiting this to smaller calibers as if just taking a jab at the success threads is not productive.

 

[bmart2622]

Deer can go a ways in 5 seconds. I was pretty clear about what's acceptable to me and why, as well as a good explanation of why some people don't like what the slide now considers to be ideal performance. Some people are going to call a fragmented or core slipped bullet a failed bullet regardless of what happens. I think that's what the vast majority of bullet failure reports are coming from.

Got it, 5 seconds from shot to stone dead is unacceptable. Bullets designed to fragment and non bonded cup and core bullets shedding the jacket and working exactly how they are intended to work is a bullet failure....not a lack of understanding by the person claiming they failed...got it

 

[deerhunter628]

This is exactly what I was trying to convey but I suck at explaining things and typing on the internet.

Example 1 is what we need here. Example 2 is likely all we will see unless folks demand more information like in Example 1. It's not "questioning someone's integrity" or "trying to hurt somebody's feelings" in any way. Saying you've killed 100's of deer and every single deer ever has "left a blood trail" is an example 2 that we don't need in here.

I guess thats the same as you saying you have shot hundreds of bullets into gel and into books. I didnt see all the videos or pictures of your books and gel. I answered the questions Form had asked.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Context matters, but not with you.

Do you ever enter a discussion with an honest desire to come to a factual conclusion, or is it always passive aggressive, childish name calling?

Did you just say I was passive aggressive? Pot, meet kettle. .

too bad you blur out all your pictures, you could put yourself in the dictionary under narcissistic.