.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Bowfinn]

Work is done on the bullet to cause it to fragment. Velocity alone does not do that...

Work is done on the bullet through resistance. If the bullet meets low resistance it won’t allow the bullet to change upset and damage increased levels of tissue.

I’ll attach the equation of resistance for reference. The big take away is that velocity’s input into the equation for resistance is squared, and energy or mass is not even mentioned.

 

[bowrunner81]

C'mon guys, it's still hunting season. It's too early for the threads purely for entertainment to start.

I have 2 failures.

30-06 180 speer hot cor. Impact about 2700 quartering away slightly. No blood trail. No exit. Bull Died 40 yards away.

243 108 eldm . Impact about 2450. No blood. No exit. Hard time finding bullet entry. Bull died in 40 yards.

Would those be failures tho? 40 yards isn’t to bad. Did the bullets not open up?

 

[Spoonbill]

I have seen a 6mm bullet “fail.” 6mm bullet 55 grain copper bullet that was designed to tumble on an antelope.
I wasn’t the shooter but observed the shot and was there when the antelope was gutted.
First shot hit the antelope quartering away, if memory serves shot distance was 200-250 yards. Antelope ran and took a second shot still didnt drop but ran off. Eventually got back on the antelope and it died before a 3rd shot was needed. When gutting we tried to figure out what happened and found a hole through the liver, that looked like a knife cut. Based on a sample size of 7 animals using a 70 grain bullet from the same manufacturer, we concluded that the bullet did not work as designed and punched straight through rather than tumble.
I may have pictures of the liver, if I can find it I will post it.

 

[Dave0317]

I have never had a bullet failure, but how would somebody prove a bullet failure?

Ideally, as popular as it is to film your own hunts these days, someone produces video of a solid hit, that would have killed with the “right” bullet, but instead shows the deer live due to lack of penetration or whatever mechanism it is that makes a .223 “insufficient” as some folks claim.

I think solid evidence could also be a repeatable experiment. IE; you put a cow scapula in some Ballistic gel and shot with a 6mm and can show lack of penetration, same experiment repeated with a 30-06 ends up showing sufficient penetration.

A dead deer that was hit in the vitals is not necessarily a failure, whether there was blood or not.

Said it before, but to keep us on track,
Failure in the context of this discussion should be:
A .223, 6, or 6.5 heavy match bullet, failed to produce a kill, when placed through a part of the animal that a more traditional big game bullet (like a 30-06 Accubond or mono) would have certainly produced a kill. Whether due to lack of trauma, lack of penetration, lack of “energy” or whatever the bullet should have had more of.

 

[Dave0317]

I have seen a 6mm bullet “fail.” 6mm bullet 55 grain copper bullet that was designed to tumble on an antelope.
I wasn’t the shooter but observed the shot and was there when the antelope was gutted.
First shot hit the antelope quartering away, if memory serves shot distance was 200-250 yards. Antelope ran and took a second shot still didnt drop but ran off. Eventually got back on the antelope and it died before a 3rd shot was needed. When gutting we tried to figure out what happened and found a hole through the liver, that looked like a knife cut. Based on a sample size of 7 animals using a 70 grain bullet from the same manufacturer, we concluded that the bullet did not work as designed and punched straight through rather than tumble.
I may have pictures of the liver, if I can find it I will post it.

Thanks for sharing.

I think, this is a great write up. Up front about sample size, describes the way the bullet performed, and has enough detail to allow the reader to also see the same logical conclusion, or allow others to replicate what happened if desired.
So even without pictures, anecdotes can hold value.

But when an extraordinary claim is made, like a bullet somehow hitting behind the shoulder and not penetrating into anything vital, some more detail is obviously going to be asked.

 

[Dave0317]

Well, to be fair, we are 6 pages in of people saying bullet failures don't happen. If the only posts were actual bullet failures we would be on page 1.

This should actually be good news for everyone!

If you like 338 win mags shooting copper bullets, congratulations, you can kill things.

If you like low recoil and high hit rates, and you are killing things with 6mm, congratulations, no one has shown that it’s a bad idea yet.

I feel like you don’t see this in the archery forums as much. People have their preferences, but they are honest with themselves that it’s a preference. You like the idea of a wider cut and don’t have the time to finely tune a broadhead flight, use a mechanical. You have the time to perfectly tune arrows and like reliable penetration, use a fixed blade broadhead.

Maybe these bullets should be viewed the same way.
You like low recoil, and more than adequate trauma and sufficient penetration?
-shoot a 6mm with heavy Match bullets.
You want to maximize would channel depth and you are ok with a narrower wound channel and more recoil?
- shoot a .30 cal mono.

Not too big a deal.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Absolutely agree. Keep killing with the stuff you like to kill with.

Thread simply stands as an open invitation for those that do have some solid evidence that contradicts the piles of animals in the .223, 6, and 6.5 threads.

I’m largely curious myself. Smallest thing I have shot a deer with yet is a .308. (Unless you count arrows)
This year I plan to bring my .223 deer hunting, but figured this thread could be a good final check off to see if there is any real reason not to. So far, I’ll still be bringing the .223.

I tried out hunting with a 223 last year out of curiosity, myself. Honestly, photos of inside the animal doesn’t matter to me. Photos of a great blood trail means more to me. I’m still searching for the 223 bullet that will consistently give me two holes and blood trail.

If my deer would’ve all dropped where I shot them (like seemingly most of them did on the 223 thread) I’d still be using that bullet. Both(yeah, yeah small sample size) ran at least 50 yards. Neither had an exit. One was around 120 yards(100lbs doe) and 40 yards(220 lbs 8 point).

Good luck with journey. I hope you kill a truck load of ‘em.