.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[mxgsfmdpx]

I'm mostly in agreement, probably starting my period and irritable.

I think your premise comes from being an open minded person and wanting to learn from what others have experienced. I think that is a good thing in general… But on a public internet forum, when it’s regarding a pretty “controversial” topic, which has been echoed with opposing opinions for decades, it’s a recipe for “stories” and “hearsay”.

I think we would be best to avoid that here.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

My friend's cousin's uncle's stepbrother had a corelockt 140gr boolit out of a 264 win mag blowed up on a whitetail doe.....(sarcasm)

 

[WeiserBucks]

I think your premise comes from being an open minded person and wanting to learn from what others have experienced. I think that is a good thing in general… But on a public internet forum, when it’s regarding a pretty “controversial” topic, which has been echoed with opposing opinions for decades, it’s a recipe for “stories” and “hearsay”.

I think we would be best to avoid that here.

I guess my simple minded point is that it's possible to learn from others without pictures.

I could type out an example of my experience with a grand total of one bullet failure that I personally witnessed, but it'd be immediately dismissed as bullshit because I don't have photographic evidence.

 

[Formidilosus]

The complete dismissal of anyone's experience due to lack of pictures is a crock. According to Rokslide anyone who doesn't have a picture to back up everything they say is full of shit.

Rokslide version of history began with the ability to post pictures on the internet, everything before that is stories and heresay.

That’s a total misconstruing of what is being asked for.

If I said that had seen 3 people jump off a 70 story building onto concrete and not only not die, but just walked it off- would you believe it? What if I super serial swore that it happened?

Extraordinary claims require some version of evidence and proof.

This is a perfect example of my point ^^^

I killed a deer and elk this fall. Posted a picture of the elk but not the deer. Soooooo, I guess the elk I killed is a fact but the deer I killed is just an interpretation/opinion.

No. Because it is believable that you killed a deer- it is easily provable that people kill deer all the time- it can be replicated. The mythical animal shoulders that stop big game bullets can literally not be replicated or proven. No matter how many test shots in proper ballistic media, nor live tissue- you never see all these bullets only penetrating 3”.


When I first started posting here, I got flamed nonstop for explaining that most scopes don’t hold zero and work; and that small calibers kill elk without issue even at very long ranges. This was an extraordinary claim to most, and I didn’t just say “trust me bro, I did it”. I provided very detailed information about how and why scopes fail, discussed from a position of reason and logic; and how to replicate the events for people to see for themselves.
Hundreds of wound channel pictures, some videos, medical terminal ballistics papers, data, gel shots, etc, etc.


Let’s go the other way- I have stated that Barnes TTSX’s in general show very minimal expansion below 2,000fps impact. But Barnes claims 1,800fps and even 1,500fps for some. Ok- in less than 5 shots through properly calibrated gel with phantom cameras what I just stated will, can, and has been shown to be correct. Not some mythical magical thing that never can be replicated- it can and is replicated on demand.
But, people are supposed to put stock in something that can not replicated no matter how rigorously tested nor regardless of tries, from people that still think that ft-lbs of energy is a reliable indicator of wounding, or that there is a “no-man’s land” above the lungs but below the spine where a bullet or arrow can go, or that a deer scapula that you can see through will stop a bullet, or that “there is 10 inches of muscle over an elk shoulder”, etc, etc.

 

[WeiserBucks]

That’s a total misconstruing of what is being asked for.

If I said that had seen 3 people jump off a 70 story building onto concrete and not only not die, but just walked it off- would you believe it? What if I super serial swore that it happened?

Extraordinary claims require some version of evidence and proof.










No. Because it is believable that you killed a deer- it is easily provable that people kill deer all the time- it can be replicated. The mythical animal shoulders that stop big game bullets can literally not be replicated or proven. No matter how many test shots in proper ballistic media, nor live tissue- you never see all these bullets only penetrating 3”.


When I first started posting here, I got flamed nonstop for explaining that most scopes don’t hold zero and work; and that small calibers kill elk without issue even at very long ranges. This was an extraordinary claim to most, and I didn’t just say “trust me bro, I did it”. I provided very detailed information about how and why scopes fail, discussed from a position of reason and logic; and how to replicate the events for people to see for themselves.
Hundreds of wound channel pictures, some videos, medical terminal ballistics papers, data, gel shots, etc, etc.


Let’s go the other way- I have stated that Barnes TTSX’s in general show very minimal expansion below 2,000fps impact. But Barnes claims 1,800fps and even 1,500fps for some. Ok- in less than 5 shots through properly calibrated gel with phantom cameras what I just stated will, can, and has been shown to be correct. Not some mythical magical thing that never can be replicated- it can and is replicated on demand.
But, people are supposed to put stock in something that can not replicated no matter how rigorously tested nor regardless of tries, from people that still think that ft-lbs of energy is a reliable indicator of wounding, or that there is a “no-man’s land” above the lungs but below the spine where a bullet or arrow can go, or that a deer scapula that you can see through will stop a bullet, or that “there is 10 inches of muscle over an elk shoulder”, etc, etc.

People respond to your evidence and documentation in a positive manner. Before they saw your pictures ect. they all said you were full of shit. Does that mean your experience prior to posting photographic evidence is invalid? Of course not and that's my whole point.

People are skeptical of experiences that don't mirror their own and some are way to quick to call others a liar. I'm skeptical of a bunch of crap I hear about but I don't call people a liar simply because they can't prove their experience via internet pictures.

 

[Turkeytider]

The first deer I shot with a 223 and 77 TMK resulted in a deer that was extremely hard to find. If I had shot it in the late evening, instead of mid morning, I wouldn’t have found it. I wasn’t real happy with the performance, so I’ll be testing some different bullets this year.

Blasphemy!!

 

[Formidilosus]

People respond to your evidence and documentation in a positive manner. Before they saw your pictures ect. they all said you were full of shit. Does that mean your experience prior to posting photographic evidence is invalid? Of course not and that's my whole point.

No, it doesn’t mean that my experience wasn’t real- but I also don’t expect them to believe it, or give it much credence whatsoever without evidence.

People are skeptical of experiences that don't mirror their own

I don’t think in context of this thread that is the case. People are extremely skeptical of claims that all evidence, all testing, and all proof can’t replicate.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

Might be better off to talk about bullets not to use for hunting. More about the bullets terminal performance than the caliber/cartridge imo.

This. It’s funny we still focus on caliber as opposed to the bullet, velocity, and what it’s known terminal potential is.

Half the folks out there still think the only bullets available are unbonded cup and core. The majority of our newer calibers are designed around the fact that we have newer and better bullets, and all of our older calibers are also benefiting.

 

[ElPollo]

People respond to your evidence and documentation in a positive manner. Before they saw your pictures ect. they all said you were full of shit. Does that mean your experience prior to posting photographic evidence is invalid? Of course not and that's my whole point.

People are skeptical of experiences that don't mirror their own and some are way to quick to call others a liar. I'm skeptical of a bunch of crap I hear about but I don't call people a liar simply because they can't prove their experience via internet pictures.

My intent was not to call anyone a liar. Just to say that it’s difficult to differentiate between opinions without evidence and context.

 

[roadrunner]

....that ft-lbs of energy is a reliable indicator of wounding,

It does if you know what it means.

Do you?

 

[Formidilosus]

It does if you know what it means.

Do you?

How many ft-lbs of energy does it take to reliably upset a Nosler Accubond? And how wide and deep will that wound be?

 

[deerhunter628]

I shot a medium size doe last year with a 77 TMK. The doe did die but did not leave one drop of blood. Luckily where i was hunting was pretty open so i was able to find her. That was the first and last deer i shot with a .223.

 

[Formidilosus]

I shot a medium size doe last year with a 77 TMK. The doe did die but did not leave one drop of blood. Luckily where i was hunting was pretty open so i was able to find her. That was the first and last deer i shot with a .223.

Have you ever shot a deer, or know of someone else shooting a deer with a larger caliber that also didn’t leave blood?

 

[WeiserBucks]

How many ft-lbs of energy does it take to reliably upset a Nosler Accubond? And how wide and deep will that wound be?

I'll go ahead and answer this one for the class.

For a Nosler AB it takes a minimum of 1500 Fudd-lbs reliably take elk. Kept above that threshold the wound will be approx 1.5 Fudds wide and 4.2 Fudds deep.

 

[roadrunner]

How many ft-lbs of energy does it take to reliably upset a Nosler Accubond? And how wide and deep will that wound be?

That's not what I asked...

 

[Dobermann]

The first deer I shot with a 223 and 77 TMK resulted in a deer that was extremely hard to find. If I had shot it in the late evening, instead of mid morning, I wouldn’t have found it. I wasn’t real happy with the performance, so I’ll be testing some different bullets this year.

I'm curious to learn more about this.

What was the shot placement?

Did you fire a follow-up shot? If so, with what effect?

Did you do an autopsy?

Any photos?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It does if you know what it means.

Do you?

Would you be able to extend your knowledge to those of us that have learned otherwise?

I too was a “1,500 ft lbs at impact for elk” guy, because that’s what I was taught. As recent as 4 or 5 years ago you would have seen me shooting heavier hitting guns for cow elk depredation hunts (where I’ll be in both Wyoming and Idaho this year shortly). I shoot “long range” on those hunts and wanted to maintain “all the energy” down range, as I was taught. I also used .243 and .264 guns since the late 90s but held those to “closer ranges” and used my .30s and 7mms for the long shots.

Once I started killing using impact velocity as the metric instead of ft lbs, I found that kills came just the same; and allowed me to use my .243 and .260 at much longer ranges.

There’s a lot more to the story as I’ve used “match” and “tipped” style bullets for 10 seasons now, and learned a lot on deer and elk using those. Much to the dismay of several folks I shot and hunted with, but I was still misinformed on “energy” for a long time after.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Nobody believes the pictures either.
They claim you to the picture wrong.
Your are not a trained necropsy professional.
The angle of the pics, what’s this or that.

 

[Stickmark]

Have you ever shot a deer, or know of someone else shooting a deer with a larger caliber that also didn’t leave blood?

Me. Coues deer with a 3006, 100yards, 168 grain Win or Rem, I forget. Left a couple tiny specks on a boulder. Could not believe it as I had the Bang-flop prior year with same rifle. Found the no-blood deer 40yards away, dead. Good exit hole, on that quartering to shot. He lay dead right where I passed on a big buck at 20 yards, 7 earlier with my first Native American bow I had made, too far for me at the time (I do a lot of dumb things).
I guess, now, the bullet just flung out the blood and tissue into the dry grass.

 

[deerhunter628]

Have you ever shot a deer, or know of someone else shooting a deer with a larger caliber that also didn’t leave blood?

Yes. I have shot hundreds of deer. All with larger cartridges and they all have left blood trails.