.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Thegman]

Fully expanded, less than 2 inches of penetration, little to no localized bruising or destroyed tissue…. Those elk are tough man.


View attachment 794948

Years ago my neighbors were after a moose they'd wounded the night before. They eventually spotted it bedded in some willows and went and killed it. I happened to be passing by when they had just finished it. Later he told me that when they came up on it, he shot it in the neck and later found that his 180 Partition from a 300 WM only penetrated the neck a few inches (2 inches as I recall, but I could be off a little on that). Regardless, the story sounded unbelievable, but he has a lot of experience and doesn't make things up, nor have a reason to. Weird things happen??

 

[Formidilosus]

Years ago my neighbors were after a moose they'd wounded the night before. They eventually spotted it bedded in some willows and went and killed it. I happened to be passing by when they had just finished it. Later he told me that when they came up on it, he shot it in the neck and later found that his 180 Partition from a 300 WM only penetrated the neck a few inches (2 inches as I recall, but I could be off a little on that). Regardless, the story sounded unbelievable, but he has a lot of experience and doesn't make things up, nor have a reason to. Weird things happen??

Yes weird things do happen, however necks tend to catch a lot of bullets from all calibers. I have caught several 300 mag and .338 partitions and TSX’s in deer necks. It seems to be a combination of the muscle and cartilage density, along with the largest/strongest part of the spine- and then the fact that it moves when hit. Slow motion video with Phantom cameras have shown the neck moving in the direction of the bullets path before the bullet exits- if it exits.

There is some interesting things that happen often enough in certain animals, and with certain placement. For instance- I/we’ve caught quite a few bullets from 300 mags in coyotes, when those same bullets have exited in every single deer, or in a couple of cases 99% of deer that has been shot with them.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I’m pretty sure people understood sarcasm well enough. I’m also sure that they understand it was an example of what happens when people claim “bullet blew up on the shoulder and failed to penetrate”.

Hey, in my defense, I ended that thread title with a ? to get feedback on what the experts here thought might of happened. I landed on suicide grouse

 

[Formidilosus]

Hey, in my defense, I ended that thread title with a ? to get feedback on what the experts here thought might of happened. I landed on suicide grouse

Haha.

 

[Thegman]

Yes weird things do happen, however necks tend to catch a lot of bullets from all calibers. I have caught several 300 mag and .338 partitions and TSX’s in deer necks. It seems to be a combination of the muscle and cartilage density, along with the largest/strongest part of the spine- and then the fact that it moves when hit. Slow motion video with Phantom cameras have shown the neck moving in the direction of the bullets path before the bullet exits- if it exits.

There is some interesting things that happen often enough in certain animals, and with certain placement. For instance- I/we’ve caught quite a few bullets from 300 mags in coyotes, when those same bullets have exited in every single deer, or in a couple of cases 99% of deer that has been shot with them.

I was wondering if the muscle was so adrenaline tensed it managed to "stop" the bullet. The lack of penetration seemed unbelievable, but I guess it's not(?).

FWIW, he never blamed the bullet or cartridge, just chalked it up as weird, which is probably the correct answer. Now, if I had the same happen with my 223, I'm sure he'd be all over it like stink on shit. Last year he was disgusted with the idea that I was using a 223 to kill bears. Now, after seeing all the stuff it's been killing over the past year, and watching my moose drop at the shot through his binoculars, he just nods his head and says "huh".

 

[mtnbound]

Out of curiosity, I went through the posts and tallied the results of the failures.

 

[Taudisio]

Yes weird things do happen, however necks tend to catch a lot of bullets from all calibers. I have caught several 300 mag and .338 partitions and TSX’s in deer necks. It seems to be a combination of the muscle and cartilage density, along with the largest/strongest part of the spine- and then the fact that it moves when hit. Slow motion video with Phantom cameras have shown the neck moving in the direction of the bullets path before the bullet exits- if it exits.

There is some interesting things that happen often enough in certain animals, and with certain placement. For instance- I/we’ve caught quite a few bullets from 300 mags in coyotes, when those same bullets have exited in every single deer, or in a couple of cases 99% of deer that has been shot with them.

You thoughts/examples of neck shots is interesting. I have killed two bucks with the 143eldx and neck shots. Both failed to exit but folded the deer.

My 6x45 killed 2 deer this year with neck shots, shooting the 87gr vmax at 2750 and both bullets exited. I shot a second buck, and the first shot in the ribs did not penetrate through to the hide on the far side. Second shot was a pass through in the paunch just behind the last rib (running).

1st neck shot was about 80 yards, the second was about 20, and the ribs and paunch shot was about 60 yards. I’m still trying to make sense of the rib shot not getting to the offside hide and it has me questioning the bullet. I’m also not positive on how broadside/quartering to me the buck was at the first shot. I should have taken a photo of the inside of the ribcage, but I did not.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Out of curiosity, I went through the posts and tallied the results of the failures.

That’s fascinating. Particularly the number of animals that were found after a bullet “failure” Something else I’ve noted: there are a lot of people who consider basically anything but DRT a failure. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just noticed it. People seem to have a wide range of what they consider acceptable in terms of lethality.

I personally don’t need to see DRT to be satisfied. My elk this year ran over 100 yards before expiring. One shot @400 yards, right behind the shoulder mid ship. Steep uphill, so the exit was very high lung. Looking back at video, it took him less than 10 seconds to make it 100 yards and expire. Dead within a few seconds is plenty lethal enough for me…but based on some of the discussion around this topic, many people would have considered this a bullet failure, “penciling through” ect.

recovered just under the offside hide. A portion of the bullet did exit.

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[Thegman]

That’s fascinating. Particularly the number of animals that were found after a bullet “failure” Something else I’ve noted: there are a lot of people who consider basically anything but DRT a failure. I’m not saying that’s a good or bad thing, just noticed it. People seem to have a wide range of what they consider acceptable in terms of lethality.

I personally don’t need to see DRT to be satisfied. My elk this year ran over 100 yards before expiring. One shot @400 yards, right behind the shoulder mid ship. Steep uphill, so the exit was very high lung. Looking back at video, it took him less than 10 seconds to make it 100 yards and expire. Dead within a few seconds is plenty lethal enough for me…but based on some of the discussion around this topic, many people would have considered this a bullet failure, “penciling through” ect.

recovered just under the offside hide. A portion of the bullet did exit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those are good points. IMO, the majority of "bullet failures" people talk about are placement failures, or an animal reaction after the shot that didn't meet their preconceived notions, or pulling a bullet out of a dead animal that didn't look like their preconceived notion of what a bullet should look like after impact. Not that there aren't actual bullet failures at times, but I can't say I've ever seen one fail.

 

[nagibson1]

You don’t need to be an elf or an Indian to learn how to find dead whitetails on the east coast.

“I’m gonna use a bullet that takes longer to kill in most cases, but it MIGHT leave a blood trail.” Weird.

I feel like you may not have tracked deer in Florida swamps after dark, or in Wisconsin buckthorn. Sure, most of the time it is easy, but sometimes it ain't. I've had heart hit deer go over 100yrds with full expansion bullets.

I also don't think its weird to use a full expansion bullet and want a blood trail. If I were shooting copper bullets, or even partitions, I'd get your point. But I'm shooting the same bullet y'all are shooting. It just comes out the other side in most cases with my 06, and tends to drop them faster than my .243 too.

Remember I'm not dismissing the small calibers. I'm just saying that shooting the larger ones makes sense too if you can shoot them well. Especially if you want a blood trail. Do you really believe that the larger/medium calibers do not have any advantage of any kind at all?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I feel like you may not have tracked deer in Florida swamps after dark, or in Wisconsin buckthorn. Sure, most of the time it is easy, but sometimes it ain't. I've had heart hit deer go over 100yrds with full expansion bullets.

I also don't think its weird to use a full expansion bullet and want a blood trail. If I were shooting copper bullets, or even partitions, I'd get your point. But I'm shooting the same bullet y'all are shooting. It just comes out the other side in most cases with my 06, and tends to drop them faster than my .243 too.

Remember I'm not dismissing the small calibers. I'm just saying that shooting the larger ones makes sense too if you can shoot them well. Especially if you want a blood trail. Do you really believe that the larger/medium calibers do not have any advantage of any kind at all?

They have potential for advantages, but do they always outweigh the disadvantages?

 

[DagOtto]

Maybe elk can stop bullets?

30cal bonded. That is the entrance into the back-strap.

View attachment 794849

Any details? Distance, velocity, follow up shots?, bullet type?
Thanks

 

[The Guide]

Any details? Distance, velocity, follow up shots?, bullet type?
Thanks

See post 356 of this thread. He gives enough of "the rest of the story" to understand.

Jay

 

[nagibson1]

They have potential for advantages, but do they always outweigh the disadvantages?

No.
That is the right question, I agree.
Today was Wisconsin opener and I shot 2 does. Both were quick kills with the 06. But I was really concentrating on not flinching. That is the hardest part of shooting for me.
I suspect both would have been identical with a 243 or even a 223.
However, I did include the spurting bath of a blood trail the 06 made just for good measure. But both were heart-lung shots where caliber difference could not have mattered.

I think I will get a 223 or load a good bit more for the 243 because I flinch when I have not been shooting. The 223 will let me shoot more and allow for shooting improvement.

 

[OneGunTex]

I've posted in a couple of the other bullet/caliber threads and have admitted that I am convinced by the argument, but I've got a bit of a counterfactual question after an experience this past weekend shooting a large deer with a 6.5 CM, 140gr ELDM.

Was in a tree saddle, shooting off my weak side leaning against the bridge. Deer was in the timber at ~80yds, ~100ft beneath me in elevation, partially obstructed by a tree, broadside. I made a judgement call and shot him a little bit further back than I would have liked. Saw him buck the shot and run off. Found blood where I shot him and tracked a decent blood trail ~120yds. Necropsy showed a single lung shot and a bunch of scrambled internals, liver, etc.

Do you think a 223 shooting a 77gr TMK would have provided the same results?

Let's not question the choice of shot, but rather explore what the difference caliber may have made in this. I am VERY glad that I had a blood trail. Would a smaller bullet of similar construction left me with an exit wound, given that the larger bullet did not result in DRT? Would anyone argue that a different caliber + bullet would have provided better/worse results?

This wasn't a failure, but in what circumstances might it have been?

 

[Formidilosus]

I've posted in a couple of the other bullet/caliber threads and have admitted that I am convinced by the argument, but I've got a bit of a counterfactual question after an experience this past weekend shooting a large deer with a 6.5 CM, 140gr ELDM.

Was in a tree saddle, shooting off my weak side leaning against the bridge. Deer was in the timber at ~80yds, ~100ft beneath me in elevation, partially obstructed by a tree, broadside. I made a judgement call and shot him a little bit further back than I would have liked. Saw him buck the shot and run off. Found blood where I shot him and tracked a decent blood trail ~120yds. Necropsy showed a single lung shot and a bunch of scrambled internals, liver, etc.

Do you think a 223 shooting a 77gr TMK would have provided the same results?

Let's not question the choice of shot, but rather explore what the difference caliber may have made in this. I am VERY glad that I had a blood trail. Would a smaller bullet of similar construction left me with an exit wound, given that the larger bullet did not result in DRT? Would anyone argue that a different caliber + bullet would have provided better/worse results?

This wasn't a failure, but in what circumstances might it have been?

Taken out to enough animals, the difference would be indistinguishable with slightly higher chance of an exit with the 140gr ELD-M.

 

[Thegman]

No.
That is the right question, I agree.
Today was Wisconsin opener and I shot 2 does. Both were quick kills with the 06. But I was really concentrating on not flinching. That is the hardest part of shooting for me.
I suspect both would have been identical with a 243 or even a 223.
However, I did include the spurting bath of a blood trail the 06 made just for good measure. But both were heart-lung shots where caliber difference could not have mattered.

I think I will get a 223 or load a good bit more for the 243 because I flinch when I have not been shooting. The 223 will let me shoot more and allow for shooting improvement.

Just a thought, but a good happy medium, especially for the woods in Wisconsin, might just be a much smaller 30 caliber cartridge. A 300 BLK with, for example a 110 Tac-TX , 125 BT or SST would probably still provide larger exits with better blood trails than smaller caliber cartridges. My 300 HAM'R with 125 BT has created some impressive blood trails I could follow from 20 or 30 feet. Like any cartridge, the blood trails won't happen 100% of the time, but probably more often than from smaller diameter bullets. Another thought would be to just use reduced recoil loads in your '06.

 

[PredatoronthePrairie]

6.5 147 eldm. 118yards. Entry dime size, exit nickle.

Think I need a bit more oomph next time.
Or is it wallop, not sure.

 

[hunterjmj]

6.5 147 eldm. 118yards. Entry dime size, exit nickle.

Think I need a bit more oomph next time.
Or is it wallop, not sure.
View attachment 795409

You'll definitely need more knockdown power for sure. Probably some authority as well. Add these two together with wallop and you'll have the perfect recipe!

 

[nagibson1]

Just a thought, but a good happy medium, especially for the woods in Wisconsin, might just be a much smaller 30 caliber cartridge. A 300 BLK with, for example a 110 Tac-TX , 125 BT or SST would probably still provide larger exits with better blood trails than smaller caliber cartridges. My 300 HAM'R with 125 BT has created some impressive blood trails I could follow from 20 or 30 feet. Like any cartridge, the blood trails won't happen 100% of the time, but probably more often than from smaller diameter bullets. Another thought would be to just use reduced recoil loads in your '06.

Agree.
I have loaded down to 125 gr bullets in the 06, and at woods distances, they are more than adequate. Running slow, they do well too. I have loaded them for target loads for my wife and kids. But they probably hunt just fine. I broke down the 2 I got this AM, and there was more damage than I'd have like on exit.
I had my son shoot his first deer with a blackout, and it seemed to do fine. But in the AR platform I used the factory ammo grouped for crap. He harvested a tiny deer, and it went fine- though cycling a round is LOUD.

Light caliber guys, am I understanding right that you are intentionally using soft structure, quality match bullets that expand maximally, rather than the conventional- "If I use a smaller bullet I need to use a partition or something designed to stay together MORE than most bullets"?

When I was on the panhandle (2003-2008) my 243 buddies (Very experienced loaders and very good shooters) loaded hot and said these bullets "blew up" at ranges under 70yds or so (the early Nosler polymer tips), so they all loaded partitions hot. This is the opposite of the current logic on 223 killing correct? The current school is: load match bullets that are intentionally softer to get quick expansion at all speeds over 1800fps. Is that right?