Will a 3 point always be a 3 point?

[Cindy Wamsley]

We manage a hunting area with some big 3 point bucks. Some of the hunters who hunt this area feel like we need to be harvesting these 3 points as they will never be anything bigger than a 3 point. What's your take?

 

[Beastmode]

I have killed and seen some incredibly big 3 pointers killed that I honestly believe would never have gotten bigger. I have also seen some young 3 pointers killed that had a ton of potential to become giants. To say across the board a buck is going to stay a 3 point is a pretty hard IMO. An old big 3 point is most likely going to stay that way, but there's no guarantee. My opinion is mainly off blacktail deer by the way too. But very similar frame structure just not size.

 

[Jon Boy]

Good question! I've always wondered if once a non typical always a non typical?

 

[Buster]

If it's a big mature deer and it's a 3, it will likely always be a 3. That being said, other factors, like drought, injuries etc, can hamper horn growth from year to year. There is also a lot of research on whitetail antler growth out there that I'm sure translates to mule deer antler growth.

 

[Buster]

Mature, as in 4 1/2 and older.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

So how do you judge age on the hoof? Body size?

 

[Buster]

Mainly body, also face. Sway belly, shoulder size, roman nose etc. Antler size can work for first couple of years. Again, a lot of research on whitetail aging that translates to mule deer. If you watch the area from year to year, you will start to recognize deer and know their age from from history.

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

Body size is one way. The buck I killed this year was double the size of the young 4x that he was with.

If you are close another way to tell that I just learned this year is how beat up are their ears? Old bucks have battle wounds on their ears. Robby told me about this one, credit is due to him for that.

Antler mass is another way to tell. A deer with plenty of mass will more than likely be an older buck as it's built over time.

The Roman nose is another way to tell. When they fight a lot during the rut their noses are pressed against each hard, and it can deform the cartilage in their nose over time.

Worn teeth are the easiest way to tell after you pull the trigger.

 

[Buster]

Just remember to use as many indicators as possible, I've seen old bucks with thin horns, small bodies, no roman nose or no belly. I seem to remember a article in eastman's that detailed aging mule deer. If I find it, I'll try to steer you that way.

 

[Cindy Wamsley]

Thanks for the information.

 

[Nick Muche]

I know that this one right here will never be more than a three point

 

[MTNRCHR]

Ya Nick I saw him this year and he is still a 3. I still would like to know how you got him to pose for that picture!

Another way to tell older buck is by its color. Older bucks look grey and younger bucks look red. (early season)

 

[JWP58]

I know that this one right here will never be more than a three point

My math isn't the greatest, but if I'm looking right I see a 6 point......but maybe that's the Texan coming out in me. I had a coworker tell me they shot a 4point the other day, all excited. My first though was, ok....so you shot a forky???? Then I remembered Im in bizzaro world and folks round here can only count one side of a rack.

What do you folks do if its a 4x3? Or 5x4??? Split the difference and call it a 3.5 or 4.5 point?

 

[Jeff Martin]

This reminds me the old point of view on the whitetail spike...once a spike, always a spike. Their is a lot of extensive reading on the spike question and the answer is 100% absolutely not true. Spikes have grown and shown to be large 10 points in the studies i have read by biologist.

Applying this principle (perhaps wrongly) I say no. You can never tell, but I find nothing is "always" anything ...IMO

 

[velvetfvr]

My math isn't the greatest, but if I'm looking right I see a 6 point......but maybe that's the Texan coming out in me. I had a coworker tell me they shot a 4point the other day, all excited. My first though was, ok....so you shot a forky???? Then I remembered Im in bizzaro world and folks round here can only count one side of a rack.

What do you folks do if its a 4x3? Or 5x4??? Split the difference and call it a 3.5 or 4.5 point?

It's a 4x3 if it has 4 on 1 side and 3 on the other side, and when it gets to 5+ points, I just call it a non typical.

 

[Jager]

Mainly body, also face. Sway belly, shoulder size, roman nose etc. Antler size can work for first couple of years. Again, a lot of research on whitetail aging that translates to mule deer. If you watch the area from year to year, you will start to recognize deer and know their age from from history.

Cindy, I used to head up a GM organisation in Australia where there was, or still is, a rule that only stags of 6 years and older can be harvested, this allows for younger animals to bring through any good trophy potential. Easier said than done with so many new and not so new hunters coming through, most have a lot of trouble aging on the hoof.

Buster is pretty well onto it, as are the other posters.

For me and what I point out to 'our' hunters, is the first place to look at on an animal to start ascertaining an age is the pedicles. Are they long, or close to the skull, as in Nick's pic. Obviously if they are a long way off, the animal still has a lot of growing to do and there is a good chance he will grow more points.

Next, look at neck size and how he carries his head.

I have zero experience with Mulies, but antler growing is antler growing regardless of species.

There is a great book called 'Whitetail Racks', which is a great read for any trophy hunter, here is a link,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Whitetail-R...d-Out-Brand-New-Hard-Cover-Book-/360786260994

Looking at antler size to age an animal is not very accurate, as in the scenario of being in an area with great genetics, you may have a 3 year old monster that truly will grow into a record breaker, someone says, 'look at the monster' simply because he has great antler growth, and harvests the animal. Yet the same animal, with age, would have grown into something really big.

Too answer your question, if you are pretty certain the 3 points in your managed area are mature animals, for me, I would pull the trigger.

Good luck with your management.

 

[Buster]

Ya Nick I saw him this year and he is still a 3. I still would like to know how you got him to pose for that picture!

Another way to tell older buck is by its color. Older bucks look grey and younger bucks look red. (early season)

Good point, I forgot to mention early season coat colour. Again, not every old deer looks greyish early in season, but it the vast majority do.

This old 4x3 will has likely always been a 3 at best on his left side. He is 6.5 years old (we have history with him). He is grey, has a thicker chest and neck, has a larger head, and even though his roman nose is not very pronounced, he has a longer face. The mass is also a bit of an indicator.

This is his running mate. Although he looks like a big framed deer at first glance, he is still young. (We think he is 3.5, but may be 4.5). His chest is relatively thick for his age, but his neck is still thin, he is reddish, his antler mass is limited, and his head/face are small. He will likely display very similar antler characteristics next year. I wish I had a picture of the 2 side by side, because the differences were very distinct.

If I can find more example photos (hopefully not through a spotter) I will post.

 

[Eagle]

Good question! I've always wondered if once a non typical always a non typical?

I have pictures of a deer for four straight years that was a NT as a 3.5, and he is has been a slick 8 (4X4) for the last three years. No question that it's the same deer either, he just has never grown a rack anywhere near what he had at 3.5. This is in an area with no ag ground, and the deer are totally dependent on natural browse and acorns, which can vary greatly from year to year due to the weather. I'm also talking about whitetails, but I would imagine the same thing could happen with a mulie.

One other bit of interest, in Alabama, we had one of the coolest, wettest summers on record, and for the most part, antler growth has been far ahead of years past overall. The lack of heat stress and drought has really helped improve antler growth.

 

[5MilesBack]

What do you folks do if its a 4x3? Or 5x4??? Split the difference and call it a 3.5 or 4.5 point?

No.....it stays a 4x3 or a 5x4.......and I never count eye guards on a Muley. Seen some great 4x4's with eyeguards as well, but he's still just a 4x4 to me. I've got a buck that hangs around my place that was a 4x3 two years ago, 4x4 last year, and I think because of the drought he dropped back to a 4x3 this year. But he's got huge eyeguards as well........about 6". He's still a youngish buck, I think 4.5 as I've watched him grow each year.

 

[Buster]

Here is my wife's 5.5 year old 4x3 from 2012. As you can see, he's got a horse of a body, with lots of muscle in the chest and neck (no he's not rutted up! This was in mid october.) He is very grey, even for this time of year. His head is thick and long, and his teeth had a fair amount of wear (obviously not a good indicator while judging on the hoof though). His body dwarfed a great genetic 4x4 that he was hanging with that would have scored 15 inches more, but was 4.5 last fall and turned into a true giant this year. My wife elected to arrow this buck because we could see that he was the more mature buck. He likely always had weak back forks or none at all his whole life. His score did not take away from his appeal.