Why wear windstopper close to body?

[pawlyb]

In several talks/podcasts, John Barklow from Sitka talks about how you should actually wear your windstopper layer UNDER your insulation. That "most people think your wind shell should go over your puffy to block the wind" but that "that's actually not true."

The people interviewing him usually nod in agreement as some scientific-sounding answer is started but not finished - almost as though the logic is supposed to be obvious. Can anyone here tell me why, in a layering system, one would want to wear a wind shell close to body, specifically under one's insulation? The "obviously wrong" logic of wearing it over a puffy makes more intuitive sense to me. Thanks

 

[Mykolaivka887]

I wear my windstopper fleece garment outside of my other layers. This reduces the amount of heat loss to convection. If it's really windy and heat loss by convection is a real issue, I'll put my hooded puffy coat over my windstopper fleece and if that doesn't work, I then put my rain parka over my puffy coat. That usually does the trick, unless it's blowing 50+ with a minus thirty degree or deeper windchill. Then all bets are off.

 

[Ryan Avery]

In several talks/podcasts, John Barklow from Sitka talks about how you should actually wear your windstopper layer UNDER your insulation. That "most people think your wind shell should go over your puffy to block the wind" but that "that's actually not true."

The people interviewing him usually nod in agreement as some scientific-sounding answer is started but not finished - almost as though the logic is supposed to be obvious. Can anyone here tell me why, in a layering system, one would want to wear a wind shell close to body, specifically under one's insulation? The "obviously wrong" logic of wearing it over a puffy makes more intuitive sense to me. Thanks

Start at the 43:15 Mark

#16 Avery Adventures with John Barklow Big Game Product Mananger at Sitka Gear - Avery Adventures

“It’s Easy to be hard; It’s hard to be smart.” ~John Barklow John is the Big Game Product Manager at Sitka, and does he know his stuff! John educates us on how Sitka chooses their textiles and the rigorous product testing all products have to pass before being made available to the consumer...

averyadventures.com

 

[EdP]

I wear my windstopper fleece garment outside of my other layers. This reduces the amount of heat loss to convection. If it's really windy and heat loss by convection is a real issue, I'll put my hooded puffy coat over my windstopper fleece and if that doesn't work, I then put my rain parka over my puffy coat. That usually does the trick, unless it's blowing 50+ with a minus thirty degree or deeper windchill. Then all bets are off.

That's pretty much the science of it. The more insulation layers inside the wind proof layer, the more convective heat transfer is reduced. I do think that if your puffy is down, the fabric that has to be used as the shell material to retain down is also pretty good at stopping the wind.

 

[woods89]

My understanding is that wearing wind layers closer to the body means that your body heat pushes more air through the fabric, allowing you to take full advantage of the fabrics breathability. Some situations I wear it close to the body, and in some situations I wear it outside insulation. It just depends what I'm trying g to accomplish with it.

 

[tntrker]

My windstopper, Jetstream, is a size larger than my normal size just to fit outside everything else, including my puffy.

 

[P Carter]

I've been wondering about this, also; thanks for posting the podcast link.

Would it be safe to say the following:
-If the goal is to maximize warmth (perhaps when you are stationary, etc.), put windstopper as the outside layer.
-If the goal is to maximize breathability (when you are moving), put windstopper close to skin.

That is not intuitive to me, but I may give it a shot. I have a Kor preshell and Kelvin Active Hoody so I'll experiment a bit this fall.

 

[pawlyb]

Start at the 43:15 Mark

#16 Avery Adventures with John Barklow Big Game Product Mananger at Sitka Gear - Avery Adventures

“It’s Easy to be hard; It’s hard to be smart.” ~John Barklow John is the Big Game Product Manager at Sitka, and does he know his stuff! John educates us on how Sitka chooses their textiles and the rigorous product testing all products have to pass before being made available to the consumer...

averyadventures.com

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the link, that's informative

 

[Desk Jockey]

I will have to give that a listen. Years and years ago there was a gortex suit marketed to the military that was worn under camo BDUs. When you were static, the breath ability actually let you dry out. Haven’t thought about that kind of system in a long time and like many, I size and wear my windproof layer as an outer garment

 

[Rich M]

I use a breathable rain coat as an outer layer when layering in cold temps. A fleece vest or jacket under there is about as good as a parka.

 

[cornfedkiller]

Start at the 43:15 Mark

#16 Avery Adventures with John Barklow Big Game Product Mananger at Sitka Gear - Avery Adventures

“It’s Easy to be hard; It’s hard to be smart.” ~John Barklow John is the Big Game Product Manager at Sitka, and does he know his stuff! John educates us on how Sitka chooses their textiles and the rigorous product testing all products have to pass before being made available to the consumer...

averyadventures.com

Can I find that on my phone so I can listen in the truck? I tried searching it but couldn't find it..

 

[Desk Jockey]

You can listen on a phone via YouTube but while the video plays so you need some decent service. I just did.

seems to me the upshot is that the greater temp difference closer to your body will make the mechanical breathing and wicking function of the wind layer work better. He also says that if you start the day with insulation on the inside, you have to take off the out layer to remove the insulation. Makes sense.

 

[doc holiday13]

You can listen on a phone via YouTube but while the video plays so you need some decent service. I just did.

seems to me the upshot is that the greater temp difference closer to your body will make the mechanical breathing and wicking function of the wind layer work better. He also says that if you start the day with insulation on the inside, you have to take off the out layer to remove the insulation. Makes sense.

If you're hunting from the ground this makes total sense.

If you're hunting from a tree stand... makes no sense.. Tree stand hunting you won't be perspiring unless you dressed inappropriately, so you won't be sweating all that much so there is no reason to worry about breathability

 

[savetherobots]

You can listen on a phone via YouTube but while the video plays so you need some decent service. I just did.

seems to me the upshot is that the greater temp difference closer to your body will make the mechanical breathing and wicking function of the wind layer work better. He also says that if you start the day with insulation on the inside, you have to take off the out layer to remove the insulation. Makes sense.

great summation

 

[andrew_hood27]

I’m curious how much warmth you’d lose while stationary (if any) by wearing the wind stopper directly next to the base layer, versus wearing it over insulation layers as well. Anyone have any experience trying both? I’m going on my first mountain hunt in CO this October and I’m torn between base layer - mountain evo-ambient-kelvin or base layer-ambient-kelvin-Jetstream. The former seems like itll layer better from a fit perspective, but I’m afraid it won’t be warm enough compared to the latter.

 

[Marbles]

I would say it depends. However, if wind can strip heat from an insulation layer, you will be colder. That said, if you do not need the most warmth possible, simply having a wind layer in the mix works.

I think he is more talking convenience of not having to take off the wind jacket.

For most things a base layer and wind jacket is adequate if I am moving (15ish to 50ish degrees F. If I momentarily need more warmth, I will put a fleece over the wind jacket. However, if I'm in a situation where I really need more warmth, then a wind proof layer goes on the outside.

Similar, you can put a down puffy on over a hard shell to help the down dry from body heat when the weather is nice, but cold.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Interesting, never thought about it that way but I can see the line of thinking behind it. Thanks for the question and the discussion.

 

[TaperPin]

I dont buy it. There’s nothing wrong with windstopper on the outside - if you need more sweat to vent, simply unzip or take off the windstopper like we have since the stuff first came out. The argument that sweat won’t pump through the fabric might be a benefit in some weird wet activity, but I lived in windstopper fabrics in windy coastal Alaska and often covered it in Goretex, as well as windy Wyoming and had zero instances when I wished the windstopper would breath better. Zip. Zilch. I was surprised this even became a topic. If you’re sweating a lot, you have too many layers on.

Don’t get me wrong - marketing is the American way, so if someone wants to have different colored windstopper underwear every day of the week because a company says they should, I’m all for it, but I’m out. What the heck happened to common sense. I feel stupider just listening to someone suggest it.

Edit: I forced myself to listen to the podcast and my opinion hasn’t changed in the slightest.

 

[wapitibob]

I've been fishing lately, early morning runs up the reservoir. I wear a Kryptek Kratos light puffy and a Sitka MT Jacket (basically a wind shirt). It didn't take more than a cpl trips to learn the wind stopper goes on the outside if I wanted to stay warm.

 

[TaperPin]

I was joking about windstopper panties, but here they are - we have officially run out of stupid things to spend money on, so these were created. Lol