Down versus synthetic longevity- SG and Kifaru (Apex)

[huntnful]

I have the SG Grumman also. Excellent puffy.

For a synthetic puffy though, I would definitely recommend testing out the Enlightened Equipment Torrid Jacket. Unbelievable warmth and wind resistance for a 9oz item. I wear it, and bring it on every hunt. If it's not an outer layer, I use it for a mid layer for freezing temps, which I know your accustomed to; I've used a heavy merino base layer, the Torrid Jacket, and the grumman puffy. And I have never been cold with those 3 layers on yet. This Torrid jacket in the photo is 5 years old, 8.6oz and has hundreds of days in the field. I honestly can't recommend it enough. Absolute hideous piece of clothing though if that matters to anyone hahaha.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus , am I making this up or have you previously given good feedback on the ECWCS puffy as well.

When new the ECWCS is pretty decent. It’s synthetic, and older tech synthetic at that, so suffers even more from loss of loft due to use. I have used the ECWCS a bunch, and would suggest it if price is a major concern with the knowledge that full working life is pretty short.

 

[DakotaBPNW]

I have the SG Grumman also. Excellent puffy.

For a synthetic puffy though, I would definitely recommend testing out the Enlightened Equipment Torrid Jacket. Unbelievable warmth and wind resistance for a 9oz item. I wear it, and bring it on every hunt. If it's not an outer layer, I use it for a mid layer for freezing temps, which I know your accustomed to; I've used a heavy merino base layer, the Torrid Jacket, and the grumman puffy. And I have never been cold with those 3 layers on yet. This Torrid jacket in the photo is 5 years old, 8.6oz and has hundreds of days in the field. I honestly can't recommend it enough. Absolute hideous piece of clothing though if that matters to anyone hahaha.

Did you go 10D or 20D for the exterior fabric?

 

[huntnful]

Did you go 10D or 20D for the exterior fabric?

10D inside and outside

 

[DakotaBPNW]

10D inside and outside

Thanks!

 

[IBen]

Backpacking light did a scientific test of compression cycles and CLO and the average synthetic jacket loses warmth but after the initial 30% loss of warmth it remains somewhat constant. (I don’t remember the exact specifics). It will never be unusable and it will always be warmer than a fleece or alpaca or wool etc.

I have a torrid jacket that has been used and abused, only weights 7.xx ounces and its still twice as warm and half the weight of a fleece. And when i wash it after the spin cycle it is practically dry. I will wash it soon and weigh it before and after and see how much moisture it retains.

Down retaining a higher CLO (warmth to weight ratio) is well known. Synthetics aren’t even close and if they are close they wont be after a 30 days of backpacking.

 

[Dobermann]

Anyone know of a jacket similar to the LPP, pullover/anorak style, but with no insulation? I’d like something like that just as a windbreaker layer. Don’t care if it’s loud. Front and sleeves with cordura like the LPP would be ideal.

I vaguely recall @THLR posting about an anorak-style jacket that was from one of the European makers. From memory, it didn't look particularly fitted or exciting to look at, but I think a lot of folks in England wear them. Perhaps Thomas can chime in?

And not sure if they'll have exactly what you're looking for, but Carinthia has some interesting looking stuff - but it's eye-wateringly spendy. There's one jacket that from memory doesn't appear on their main pages / is hard to find on their site, but looks like it could work well. Might be slightly insulated though. Don't recall the name right now, but Craig from Tier One was wearing one in one of their early-ish videos about their bipods (the first gen, so possibly a video from 2019-2021 ??). I think someone asked about the jacket in the comments and he replied with the model name.

If that's not enough to get you there, hit me up and I'll track it down for you.

 

[THLR]

I vaguely recall @THLR posting about an anorak-style jacket that was from one of the European makers. From memory, it didn't look particularly fitted or exciting to look at, but I think a lot of folks in England wear them. Perhaps Thomas can chime in?

This??? See it on a fair amount of farmers working the hills.

Products Archive - Buffalo

www.buffalosystems.co.uk

 

[Dobermann]

This??? See it on a fair amount of farmers working the hills.

Products Archive - Buffalo

www.buffalosystems.co.uk

Yes, I think this was one of them:

Men’s Mountain Shirt

The Buffalo Mountain Shirt is an award winning design classic, we are extremely flattered that it is probably one of the most copied outdoor garments. Tested for over...

www.buffalosystems.co.uk

 

[roosiebull]

I have been asked repeatedly about the performance and differences between quality down, especially treated down; and quality synthetic- Climashield Apex.

The examples here are a Stone Glacier Grumman and a Kifaru Lost Park Parka (LPP). The Grumman is 6 years old, and the LPP is 7 years, however the LPP has less overall use time due to what is below. Both have been used about the same give or take. The Kifaru more on ranges and general wear, the SG more on hunts.


For stated “warmth” that means sitting and glassing for hours without moving, no shaking, no rubbing hands, etc- think sleeping bag. As comfortable as siting at home. Not in the sunlight, so think overcast day.
This is using a standard thin base layer and normal mid layer- Patagonia waffle top, Sitka Kelvin Active or other lighter weight Alpha insulation, etc. under it. Out of the wind, or with a wind shirt over, full belly; legs, feet, head and hands all taken care of.

The comfortable temp range is not based on just my use and thoughts. It is dozen of people. For females and children you can add 5-10° to the listed value for true comfort.



First the Lost Park Parka:

Warmth: 35°-40°ish F when new. After approx 90 days it is a 45° to 50° at best.

The LPP is probably the “best” synthetic standard weight, normal production jacket on the market. At least it is my preference. The RhinoSkin material is durable except for heat (of course), and Climashield Apex insulation is quite good, if a bit heavy, when new.

The issue is that all synthetic insulation has a relatively short lifespan- this includes Apex. I have owned and used multiple LPP’s, and have seen several dozen used consistently and they lose about 40-50% of loft in approx. 90 days of use- sitting in a chair, hunting, stuffed in a pack, etc. At 30 days of use the lost loft is noticeable, and at 60 days I would not take one on a legit hunt where insulation matters- late season elk in cold weather, sheep hunting, etc.

In rain or when wet, standard synthetic performance.

The Multicam on the left is brand new, the tan is the old one, and has had this level of loft since about 90 or so days of use/ it has not lost anything noticeable since then-

They are laid down under their own weight- not puffed up or pushed down at all
View attachment 672541

The difference in loft between the new one on the left and the used one on the right is around 90 days of use-
View attachment 672542


New loft is 1.3” to 1.4”-
View attachment 672546


Used is .6” to .7” at most-
View attachment 672547






Stone Glacier Grumman:

Warmth: 35’ish degrees. After approximately 900 days of use (150 days times 6 years), it might have dropped a couple of degrees to 35°-38°.


No noticeable loss in loft from new. The only difference between a brand new one and the old one is that when compressed in a stuff sack, the old one takes 5-10min to fully loft up, and new ones fully loft in 30sec to 1 min.

In rain or when soaked, it took about 4 to 5 years of use (600 days) and 7-8 washings before loss of loft when in rain was noticed. The first couple of years even when dunked in water or sitting for hours in rain, loft remained virtually unchanged. It still dries quickly- about as fast as synthetic, and way faster and easier than standard down, or other treated down I have used.

Gold on left is brand new, grey on right is old-
View attachment 672548

View attachment 672549


Brand new is .9” to 1” of loft-
View attachment 672550


Old is .9” to 1” of loft-
View attachment 672551







Main differences:

Longevity- after 6 hard years of use that almost no one would use a down jacket for, the Grumman basically remains as good functionally as when new. There has been no issue with wearing out, or wt weather performance problems. The Kifaru LPP which is great when new, has noticeable degradation in loft and warmth by 30-60 days.

Durability:

The Pertex fabric of the Grumman is fantastic for a lightweight shell. No major tips, and small holes close up with a bit of water. However, it like all down jackets (all puffies) aren’t meant to bust brush nor crawl for distance in the ground. The face fabric or good, but if torn the down will come out. In contrast, the synthetic is more forgiving of larger tears and abrasion because even when it gets torn, the insulation won’t come out- if you look at the tan LPP it has a large burned spot by the zipper and multiple patches. If you look at the grey Grumman it has multiple patches on the sleeves.

Both are fine as a puffy jacket. If you do silly things like wear a puffy while going through thorn/brier thickets, synthetic will handle it “better”, that is- it’ll tear, but you won’t lose insulation. The answer here is use puffy for what it is made for- static insulation.







Conclusions:

Everything stated about the Kifaru LPP can be translated to any other jacket that uses the same fill of Climashield Apex insulation. But, it will generally perform better than almost all other synthetics. In contrast, the water resistance and ability to dry out after being soaked of the Stone Glacier Grumman cannot be applied to other down garments. I have not used all the treated down options, but I have used a bunch and non have down as well as SG’s. SG’s down products are the only down insulation that I do not worry about water any more than synthetics.


If the use is for ranges, crawling around, and abusing it where warmth and weight doesn’t matter all that much, the LPP is excellent and by far my preference. However, if insulation longevity in use, warmth, weight, pack size, etc., matter-quality down is objectively and significantly better.

First off, your outline is exactly the same as I’ve experienced. Good comparison. I use my LPP a lot, it’s a great puffy for my use, which is wet mild climates, and was awesome when new, but lost loft/warmth pretty quickly, but once it got to a point, it seems to stay the same now

I have had the exact same experience with my slick bag… again, good bag for the coast, but has lost a noticeable amount of temp rating vs new.

My one question is, how does Stone’s sleeping bag compare to the Grumman as far as longevity and maintaining loft? (Assuming you’ve used it)

I’m getting close to getting another bag and don’t want to reinvest in synthetic, but moisture is a concern of mine with down… of course I do whatever I can to keep down dry, but stuff happens when it’s always wet… that has always made me shy of a down bag, knowing there will be levels of moisture exposure no matter what.

I think that the Grumman will be my next puffy, just seems like it gets a lot of praise, and I prefer to support companies that support the hunting community when it’s not a compromise in performance

 

[HighUintas]

First off, your outline is exactly the same as I’ve experienced. Good comparison. I use my LPP a lot, it’s a great puffy for my use, which is wet mild climates, and was awesome when new, but lost loft/warmth pretty quickly, but once it got to a point, it seems to stay the same now

I have had the exact same experience with my slick bag… again, good bag for the coast, but has lost a noticeable amount of temp rating vs new.

My one question is, how does Stone’s sleeping bag compare to the Grumman as far as longevity and maintaining loft? (Assuming you’ve used it)

I’m getting close to getting another bag and don’t want to reinvest in synthetic, but moisture is a concern of mine with down… of course I do whatever I can to keep down dry, but stuff happens when it’s always wet… that has always made me shy of a down bag, knowing there will be levels of moisture exposure no matter what.

I think that the Grumman will be my next puffy, just seems like it gets a lot of praise, and I prefer to support companies that support the hunting community when it’s not a compromise in performance

I was in between WM and SG for my new bag. I went with SG due to some user reports of it working very well for pushing moisture from wet clothes out of the bag and the bag retaining lift and warmth. I made that decision from other users info before Form posted this info

 

[Formidilosus]

My one question is, how does Stone’s sleeping bag compare to the Grumman as far as longevity and maintaining loft? (Assuming you’ve used it)

Just as good as the Grumman. Very good bag. Moisture has also not been a problem with Zen Bivy Light beds.

 

[sr80]

I have the SG Grumman also. Excellent puffy.

For a synthetic puffy though, I would definitely recommend testing out the Enlightened Equipment Torrid Jacket. Unbelievable warmth and wind resistance for a 9oz item. I wear it, and bring it on every hunt. If it's not an outer layer, I use it for a mid layer for freezing temps, which I know your accustomed to; I've used a heavy merino base layer, the Torrid Jacket, and the grumman puffy. And I have never been cold with those 3 layers on yet. This Torrid jacket in the photo is 5 years old, 8.6oz and has hundreds of days in the field. I honestly can't recommend it enough. Absolute hideous piece of clothing though if that matters to anyone hahaha.

the torrid is on my list for sure, i have heard that it isnt the best fitting jacket though, but that is ok. How do you find the fit compared to other puffies?

 

[huntnful]

the torrid is on my list for sure, i have heard that it isnt the best fitting jacket though, but that is ok. How do you find the fit compared to other puffies?

I think the fit is fairly standard. I sized down, so that it wouldn’t be too cumbersome as a mid layer. I’m 5’9” 180lbs and wear a large in everything. I got the torrid in a medium, and it is barely undersized. I think a large would have been fairly loose fitting based off how the medium fits. It is definitely strictly a functional piece. Nothing about it is cosmetically pleasing lol

 

[bdho]

Any issues putting a puffy down under a smock (such as arktis) ?