Why wear windstopper close to body?

[TaperPin]

Why not windstopper socks? I schitt you not, someone makes windstopper socks.

 

[mtwarden]

I was joking about windstopper panties, but here they are - we have officially run out of stupid things to spend money on, so these were created. LolView attachment 727121

You wouldn’t think those are stupid layered under running tights at -5F with a wind

 

[Poser]

I almost always tend to wear a wind layer close to skin, usually just over a base layer and then will add an insulation layer if needed -fan of vests for this this particular application. Not opposed to adding a mid layer under, but you're getting in the realm of it being too hot for me for hard activity and, if I need more insulation than that, then the insulation layer will be sufficient to also block the wind.

I'll wager this strategy will vary quite a bit by region and individual.
For dedicated wind, I use the Black Diamond Alpine Start which is a very thin layer and I don't size it in a way that would fit over a puffy. It does actually breathe well enough that I can often wear it as a mid layer without getting clamy. The Gore products that I've tried for such purposes, however, did not work well for me. Downhill skiing is really the only application I would reconsider. That BD jacket is the only "wind stopper" fabric that I have tried that I can tolerate for actual active wear. Ultimately, it just requires a lot of experimentation.

 

[fngTony]

I’m curious how much warmth you’d lose while stationary (if any) by wearing the wind stopper directly next to the base layer, versus wearing it over insulation layers as well. Anyone have any experience trying both? I’m going on my first mountain hunt in CO this October and I’m torn between base layer - mountain evo-ambient-kelvin or base layer-ambient-kelvin-Jetstream. The former seems like itll layer better from a fit perspective, but I’m afraid it won’t be warm enough compared to the latter.

I can’t remember the science of this but here’s my personal experience. I live in Colorado and have tried a few wind layers including a rain jacket. During the summer I use a Patagonia Houdini over a sun shirt. When stopped or getting hit with 50mph winds I put my down jacket over the top. This is easier than removing a rain jacket to put on a down jacket instead. So easy layering and those little wind shells pack much smaller than a fleece or softshell.

For later in the year such as October I had an insulated wind shell that brought the needed increase in warmth but did not breathe well at all. Then I was using a fleece between my base and wind shell which worked but noisy and cumbersome. I just got an Ambient that should do much better. Again I plan to layer over that just like my summer wind shell.

 

[yfarm]

You wouldn’t think those are stupid layered under running tights at -5F with a wind

After one close call, always ran with a pr of nylon soccer shorts over my fleece tights when it got 10 degrees or less.

 

[mtwarden]

After one close call, always ran with a pr of nylon soccer shorts over my fleece tights when it got 10 degrees or less.

It’s definitely no joke; it only takes once to figure out you need wind protection for the boys

As far as layering tops; if it’s a short break- I put my insulated layer over the top, strictly an efficiency thing. If it’s longer (and cold & windy), the wind layer goes on the outside.

 

[andrew_hood27]

I can’t remember the science of this but here’s my personal experience. I live in Colorado and have tried a few wind layers including a rain jacket. During the summer I use a Patagonia Houdini over a sun shirt. When stopped or getting hit with 50mph winds I put my down jacket over the top. This is easier than removing a rain jacket to put on a down jacket instead. So easy layering and those little wind shells pack much smaller than a fleece or softshell.

For later in the year such as October I had an insulated wind shell that brought the needed increase in warmth but did not breathe well at all. Then I was using a fleece between my base and wind shell which worked but noisy and cumbersome. I just got an Ambient that should do much better. Again I plan to layer over that just like my summer wind shell.

So you’re saying that in the cold you layer base - ambient - wind shell - puffy?

 

[COJoe]

It’s definitely no joke; it only takes once to figure out you need wind protection for the boys

Wayyy back in the late 80s, I ran indoor track in high school to better prepare for spring track. We would wear the early versions of running tights for warmth against the damp cold PA winters and we would wear the nylon running shorts over them for wind protection. I wore a sweat shirt and a nylon windbreaker jacket to keep my upper body warm on our road workouts.

Mtwarden, thanks to your insight, I bought the Ambient 100 hooded jacket so I'm looking forward to seeing how best to utilize it this October in my elk hunt. I probably won't use my SG De Havilland jacket as much this year, we will see how it works out.

 

[fngTony]

So you’re saying that in the cold you layer base - ambient - wind shell - puffy?

Not quite. Just got the ambient yesterday but for hunting season I plan to layer base-ambient-puffy-shell. My summer off season layering would be my wind shell instead of the ambient otherwise the same layers. My thinking is that the ambient would be a little bit of everything (wind, warmth, breathable) but not too much of anything.

 

[realunlucky]

@andrew_hood27 did you give the podcast a listen? Barklow goes into the why he chooses to layer that way.



Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

 

[fngTony]

@andrew_hood27 What my wind shell did was control my body temperature and moisture management (in conjunction with my base layer). In a way that I wasn’t overheating or sweating too much in conditions where the wind, temperature and my activity levels frequently changed.

That was summer, fall hiking not really conditions or activity levels I experience when hunting. Not that the ambient is a wind layer but it should fit my needs better as my second layer when hunting (lower altitude, less wind and temperature fluctuations and lower activity level).

 

[RCB]

The only reason I can think of is: if your windbreaker is a bit tight, and thereby actually compresses your insulation a bit, then obviously it will reduce the effectiveness of your insulation. Solution: make sure your windbreaking layer (and waterproof layer for that matter) is loose enough that the puffy layer fits easily inside it.

Beyond that, I haven't heard any argument that I buy, yet.

Imagine it's a cold windy day. You reckon "hey, plastic wrap is highly impermeable to air; I'll just wrap myself in a layer of that!" Now imagine you go outside shirtless, but with a thin layer of plastic around you. How much warmer will you be than if you had gone outside shirtless, with not plastic at all? I'd wager to say there'd be virtually no difference. Why is that? Sure, the plastic is doing its job: almost no air molecules are getting through the plastic and touching your body. It is very effectively blocking the wind, in that sense. But, of course, the wind is immediately bringing the plastic to a very low temperature, which therefore becomes very cold. Since it is directly pressed against your skin, it sucks heat away just about as fast as if it weren't there are at all. There is almost no loft between you and the wind-blocking layer!

Now imagine you have a very breathable fleece between you and the plastic wrap. I suspect, in this case, there would be a beneficial effect of adding the plastic. Without the plastic wrap, the air would get right through the breathable fleece and probably chill your skin, reducing the fleece's effectiveness as an insulator. The plastic wrap prevents that from happening. The wind will cool the outside of the fleece just as fast, but there is now some distance between that cold surface and your skin (i.e. the thickness of the fleece).

What if you had wrapped the plastic around your body and then put the fleece on over it? Again the wind would penetrate right through the fleece layer, cool the plastic, which would in turn cool your body. So it wouldn't be as effective as putting it on the outwide. Well, that's my theory, anyway.

The same is true for water proofing. Go outside shirtless on a cold, rainy day. The cold water is highly conductive and has high heat capacity, so it sucks heat away from your body very quickly (faster than equally cold air). Now wrap your upper body in highly waterproof plastic wrap. Sure, *technically* you are now completely waterproof - no water is coming in contact with your skin, directly. But since there's virtually no distance between you and the water - i.e. the plastic wrap provides virtually no insulation - you'll lose heat almost as quickly.

Anyway, that's my intuition on this problem, but I don't really know. Don't listen to me. Let experience be your guide.

 

[mtwarden]

I think w/o any shadow of doubt that from a warmth standpoint, wind layer to the outside is the clear "winner".

But he makes a good point for not doing it; it's not for every scenario, much like my example of putting on an insulatinglayer over the top for short breaks- efficiency, not the warmest option.

His scenario is you're leaving your truck in the morning heading uphill, it's pretty cold. He has a base layer on and then a wind layer; but that isn't warm enough so he has a mid-layer over the top of that. As it warms (and/or you warm) you can easily shed the mid-layer without a wholesale garment change.

 

[realunlucky]

I think w/o any shadow of doubt that from a warmth standpoint, wind layer to the outside is the clear "winner".

But he makes a good point for not doing it; it's not for every scenario, much like my example of putting on an insulatinglayer over the top for short breaks- efficiency, not the warmest option.

His scenario is you're leaving your truck in the morning heading uphill, it's pretty cold. He has a base layer on and then a wind layer; but that isn't warm enough so he has a mid-layer over the top of that. As it warms (and/or you warm) you can easily shed the mid-layer without a wholesale garment change.

I remember his reasoning was sweat mitigation and moving the moisture out of your base layer and to insulating layer where it's dried from heat coming from the wind layer as the fabric was a one way barrier

Maybe I should go back and listen to it.

 

[mtwarden]

I remember his reasoning was sweat mitigation and moving the moisture out of your base layer and to insulating layer where it's dried from heat coming from the wind layer as the fabric was a one way barrier

Maybe I should go back and listen to it.

that too ; he said with membranes, moisture moves better the closer to the source

one caution with that is you don't want a bunch of moisture moved to something like a puffy (or sleeping bag), especially with down (save an emergency)

 

[chindits]

I was joking about windstopper panties, but here they are - we have officially run out of stupid things to spend money on, so these were created. Lol

If you ever competed in biathlon and did a lot of skate skiing in temps below 10* you’d appreciate such luxuries

 

[chindits]

 

[fngTony]

The only reason I can think of is: if your windbreaker is a bit tight, and thereby actually compresses your insulation a bit, then obviously it will reduce the effectiveness of your insulation. Solution: make sure your windbreaking layer (and waterproof layer for that matter) is loose enough that the puffy layer fits easily inside it.

Beyond that, I haven't heard any argument that I buy, yet.

Imagine it's a cold windy day. You reckon "hey, plastic wrap is highly impermeable to air; I'll just wrap myself in a layer of that!" Now imagine you go outside shirtless, but with a thin layer of plastic around you. How much warmer will you be than if you had gone outside shirtless, with not plastic at all? I'd wager to say there'd be virtually no difference. Why is that? Sure, the plastic is doing its job: almost no air molecules are getting through the plastic and touching your body. It is very effectively blocking the wind, in that sense. But, of course, the wind is immediately bringing the plastic to a very low temperature, which therefore becomes very cold. Since it is directly pressed against your skin, it sucks heat away just about as fast as if it weren't there are at all. There is almost no loft between you and the wind-blocking layer!

Now imagine you have a very breathable fleece between you and the plastic wrap. I suspect, in this case, there would be a beneficial effect of adding the plastic. Without the plastic wrap, the air would get right through the breathable fleece and probably chill your skin, reducing the fleece's effectiveness as an insulator. The plastic wrap prevents that from happening. The wind will cool the outside of the fleece just as fast, but there is now some distance between that cold surface and your skin (i.e. the thickness of the fleece).

What if you had wrapped the plastic around your body and then put the fleece on over it? Again the wind would penetrate right through the fleece layer, cool the plastic, which would in turn cool your body. So it wouldn't be as effective as putting it on the outwide. Well, that's my theory, anyway.

The same is true for water proofing. Go outside shirtless on a cold, rainy day. The cold water is highly conductive and has high heat capacity, so it sucks heat away from your body very quickly (faster than equally cold air). Now wrap your upper body in highly waterproof plastic wrap. Sure, *technically* you are now completely waterproof - no water is coming in contact with your skin, directly. But since there's virtually no distance between you and the water - i.e. the plastic wrap provides virtually no insulation - you'll lose heat almost as quickly.

Anyway, that's my intuition on this problem, but I don't really know. Don't listen to me. Let experience be your guide.

You’re not wrong here it’s just that the body heat escapes too fast with wind or being stationary. The wind layer helps slow that heat escape without adding much additional warmth or trapping it too much moisture.