Why the NR HATE?? Let's fix it!

[Dos Perros]

Nobody is making anyone apply.

It still baffles me the amount of hubris someone has to have in order to demand they deserve something from another state.

I'm not up in arms that South Dakota doesn't even offer a bighorn sheep tag opportunity for Non-residents. Their state, their rules. It's super simple.

People are forking over money. With money comes influence. Certainly states could adopt the "we don't care" attitude, and the demand could be such that states could do whatever they want and still get applicants. But when a customer is telling you what they want it's wise to listen. I know in my professional career I am very lucky to have a customer telling me exactly what he wants. That's much easier than trying to figure it out myself and make costly investments into my organization on a guess.

 

[Archer86]

Non residents don’t keep the state fish and game’s lights on in my state, yet they’re able to apply to draw the 1 nonresident elk tag. Residents outside of a 3 county area get to apply for a pool of 3.

Y’all should all kiss the feet of us in the commonwealth for allowing you a chance at 25% of our tags. We’re selfless kings.


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That's likely due to the fact there is nothing worth spending the money on to go there.

If they had a game species with a high demand it would be a different outcome

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

People are forking over money. With money comes influence. Certainly states could adopt the "we don't care" attitude, and the demand could be such that states could do whatever they want and still get applicants. But when a customer is telling you what they want it's wise to listen. I know in my professional career I am very lucky to have a customer telling me exactly what he wants. That's much easier than trying to figure it out myself and make costly investments into my organization on a guess.

We know what they want. More for less. And much like every entitled individual, they'll never be satisfied.

But it is only a small very vocal minority of NR. Most hunters that go out of state understand reality.

 

[sndmn11]

Non residents don’t keep the state fish and game’s lights on in my state, yet they’re able to apply to draw the 1 nonresident elk tag. Residents outside of a 3 county area get to apply for a pool of 3.

Y’all should all kiss the feet of us in the commonwealth for allowing you a chance at 25% of our tags. We’re selfless kings.


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NR don't "keep the lights on" anywhere. Your state is living proof that argument doesn't play out in reality.

 

[t_carlson]

Just checked in on this thread, and I don't feel like reading 15 pages.

Can someone tell me if we've all joined hands and started singing Kumbaya yet????

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Just checked in on this thread, and I don't feel like reading 15 pages.

Can someone tell me if we've all joined hands and started singing Kumbaya yet????

No but we have figured out the hate flows both ways apparently, but only one side is ok to acknowledge (resident to NR....never NR to resident).

 

[406huntermt]

No but we have figured out the hate flows both ways apparently, but only one side is ok to acknowledge (resident to NR....never NR to resident).

Luckily for all of us in the west the nr don’t get a decision in what the western states decide to do so at the end of the day it really doesn’t matter

 

[fatlander]

NR don't "keep the lights on" anywhere. Your state is living proof that argument doesn't play out in reality.

They do in Wyoming.

$88,563,841 was their total revenue in 2021

Non resident license sales were $43,400,157.60 (49% of the entire budget). Pittman Robertson money hasn’t even entered the chat yet.

How can you say with a straight face that non residents aren’t keeping the lights on there?


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[t_carlson]

NR don't "keep the lights on" anywhere. Your state is living proof that argument doesn't play out in reality.

Even if they did "keep the lights on" there are FAR too many lights sucking up precious kilowatts of license dollars.

F&G agencies are just like any other .gov syndicate. They bloat and bloat and bloat and will always try and gobble up more money to justify their existence. Most of the time, they employ 3-5 individuals that, in the private sector, could be replaced by ONE person with above-average intelligence and a decent work ethic.

If I were in charge, I'd put 80% of the budget into game wardens, implement mandatory harvest check-in, and let mother nature take care of the rest. I firmly believe you could glean enough information from harvest data to manage game populations as well or better than the armies of biologists do today. There are SO many variables that can impact winter "fly over" counts that I have little faith in their accuracy. Yes, there is probably some good information collected, but the value per dollar spent is poor, IMO.

For example, hunters know when there is big winter kill. Have you ever thought "oh boy, this is a nice easy winter for the animals" and then heard from the State that it was actually a really hard one? NO!!! Yet, we'll devote how much of a budget for bios to go out there and figure out the obvious? How much money is spent just for the government to tell us something we already know?

Another example: It seems like every season, they mess with the district boundaries here in MT. You cannot convince me this is necessary. After a century plus of management, I do not believe we haven't figured out how game populations interact with geographic features. Instead, it is someone with a degree needing to justify their position, so they "fix" problems that never really existed.

Then you throw on the administrative layers and its no wonder people feel they are getting very little bang for the buck (pardon the pun).

Fire a majority of them. Leave the rest to sit in an office and analyze harvest data, and then hire a crap ton of wardens to enforce the regs. Simple.

 

[william schmaltz]

There will come a point that NR won’t keep footing the bill for R to enjoy the resource.

There is a point, but we’re a LONG ways from it. States could charge $5-10k for sheep tags and sell every one no problem and hardly have folks drop off the PP game. Easily $3-$5K for elk tags. I only plan on hunting elk out of state maybe once every 10 years. To buy a tag for $5K and drive from a few states over with a family vehicle sounds like a steal to me! Same scenario with a $10k tag in a good unit even seems reasonable.

We got guys in the sheep forum talking about taking $300K against their house to hunt 4 sheep. We’re no where even close to the top of what states could charge NR and still sell every tag while taking very little hit to the PP gravy train.

 

[BBob]

There will come a point that NR won’t keep footing the bill for R to enjoy the resource

IMO we're not even close to what non-res will pay. Sure some are getting priced out but from what I see as things go up in price it hasn't even slowed down but the numbers willing to pay has increased.

 

[CorbLand]

Non residents don’t keep the state fish and game’s lights on in my state, yet they’re able to apply to draw the 1 nonresident elk tag. Residents outside of a 3 county area get to apply for a pool of 3.

Y’all should all kiss the feet of us in the commonwealth for allowing you a chance at 25% of our tags. We’re selfless kings.


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If I remember correctly, you live on the eastern side of the US. What does your state have to hunt that I can’t hunt within 250 miles of where I live?

 

[sndmn11]

How can you say with a straight face that non residents aren’t keeping the lights on there?


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It's a very serious straight face because of all the things @t-carlson said above. You are looking at what is spent as the bare minimum to squeak by at minimum operating costs, it isn't that way. In essence, you and probably a very few amount of people within each agency, can actually say ,this is the dollar amount needed to "keep the lights on". Below that and we will fail, more than that and we will have to find ways to spend it.". The same way that I look at my current house expenses vs "keeping the lights on"; a perfect climate controlled 68deg, 1000 channels, a kick butt sprinkler system for the lush lawn, etc. All of that rolls into the household budget but sure as heck isn't needed for comfortable survival.

Again, the proof is in your own state's agency survival and looking at expenditures of any agency in the past to see what has worked lead to statements done with a straight face.

 

[fatlander]

If I remember correctly, you live on the eastern side of the US. What does your state have to hunt that I can’t hunt within 250 miles of where I live?

I said that tongue in cheek. Poking fun at the fact that we have effectively have 3 elk tags available to residents and we give one away to NR. No one here bitches about it because none us have any real shot of drawing either.

Hunting influences do enough of a disservice to the few very cool but very limited opportunities we have on the east coast. I don’t need to further blow it up here.


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[tpicou]

Look I have a fair method that everyone will agree on so we can all eat smores and sing songs or w/e people do:

This is simple. Residents get to hunt on state lands, landowners get to sell their tags to whomever, and hunting on federal land in a state is apportioned based on what % residents contribute to federal taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state

 

[fatlander]

Look I have a fair method that everyone will agree on so we can all eat smores and sing songs or w/e people do:

This is simple. Residents get to hunt on state lands, landowners get to sell their tags to whomever, and hunting on federal land in a state is apportioned based on what % residents contribute to federal taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state

Well I’ve opened a big enough can of worms here so what the heck.

If we’re going that route. . .

Anyone that gets a tax refund shouldn’t be hunting on any of the government owned lands. They’re not paying for it. Someone else is.


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[Drenalin]

I didn't read all the posts, not even close. Hopefully I didn't miss any good memes.

After the last few years of people moving into the state and region where I live, work, and recreate, I pretty much wish people would frickin stop it. So I can somewhat see the viewpoint of residents of western states who would prefer less nonresident opportunity. Given that, it makes a lot of sense for me to stay where I'm at and take advantage of the opportunities right outside my door, kind of a do unto others principle. For now, that's my attitude and that's what I'm doing. That could change any moment.

My not traveling to other places to hunt doesn't mean I don't care about what goes on there though. Anyone who either by declaration or implication is only interested in supporting hunting (and the myriad of directly and indirectly related issues) in places where they have something to gain by it is shortsighted, to say the least. The enemy isn't going to be satisfied with taking ground in one state or the other - they're coming for every last shred of it, regardless of where you live and hunt. The hunting community, if such a thing actually exists, should be fighting where the fight is at this moment in time, regardless of whether it affects what I can personally go out and shoot in 2024.

I don't know that any of that makes sense the way I wrote it. It makes sense in my head though.

 

[Dos Perros]

Well I’ve opened a big enough can of worms here so what the heck.

If we’re going that route. . .

Anyone that gets a tax refund shouldn’t be hunting on any of the government owned lands. They’re not paying for it. Someone else is.

I'm not sure if you understand what a tax refund is.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Hunting influences do enough of a disservice to the few very cool but very limited opportunities we have on the east coast. I don’t need to further blow it up here.

Why? Shouldn't you be begging for more NR hunters? I mean that's what the western states are told......certainly what's good for the west is good for the east?

I mean, you should be blowing it up just so all the tax payers know what is owed to them on all that NF land in the east (or is it different in your own backyard?)

 

[Jason Snyder]

The real take away from this thread is that NR's despise residents.

That’s a pretty broad brush you’re painting with here