Why pay for a "custom" action?

[BRTreedogs]

My answer? For me, the tikkas, perhaps with a few super-easy mods, are maybe 95% of a boutique rifle where it matters to me right now, at less than half the cost.

Half?
Half?
How do you figure? The only thing id re use on a tikka ia the action and trigger.
Every other component would be roughly the same. And the same cost.
That doesn't even come close to half.
Unless you're talking only the stripped action.
But buy they time you get a complete rifle. No way.

 

[Macintosh]

“A few easy mods”=one or a few of the typical easy things. Trigger spring, vertical grip, remove the barrel-bumps in the factory stock, drop-in aftermarket stock, brake, etc. Mostly stuff almost anyone can do with a screwdriver.

 

[Macintosh]

I figure half because I AM using more than the action—the “where it matters to me now” clause is relevant. Like I said, I totally get why others choose differently, just hasnt made sense for me. Im contemplating buying a manners eh1 for my tikka. It costs more than I have into the entire gun already, including both barrels. Thats what I mean by half. And yes, I could also probably put a rifle together on an action for less than double if I tried. Forgive some degree of hyperbole.

 

[QuackAttack]

Define the performance you want and it answers itself.

High performance guns are like any other item…clothes, cars…that last 10% of gains is where it gets real.

If you don’t need the absolute best precision, accuracy, range…you likely don’t truly need a custom rifle. If you get limited hunting opportunities, physically hard hunts, and absolutely must connect on target…it’s likely worth it.

Work backwards from your target, starting with terminal performance, then external ballistics…this will define your cartridge and projectile which will then define most of your rifle.

Really though, a Stiller isn’t more expensive than a 700 once you pay to ship and fully machine the 700…

 

[Gila]

What is it about the Tikka recoil lug that makes it a con? By not having a recoil lug between your action and barrel you are eliminating tolerance buildup. That is a positive to me.

I know that a lot of aftermarket actions have a machined recoil lug that is part of the action. Those are better than the two piece design of the R700 action but also add totally uneeded cost compared to the simplicity of the Tikka recoil lug.

It all depends on what you are are willing to live with. Tikka has had issues with the recoil lug because they changed it to steel. Tikka also replaced the plastic bolt shroud with metal as well. I would say that Tikka hasn’t had any issues with the plastic bottom metal. Gluing the recoil lug into the Tikka factory stock certainly isn’t the answer because the recoil lug needs to move and seat until fully torqued. The last Tikka I bought, I replaced the bottom metal and the recoil pad when I took it out of the box. I didn’t need to, the factory rifle parts would have functioned well I am sure. But shooting is more comfortable especially with gloves on. I like LRI’s recoil lug solution but it won’t work in the factory stock from what i understand:

https://www.longriflesinc.com/products/gunsmithing-services-tombstone-lug-retrofit-on-tikka-actions

 

[Macintosh]

I think the other reason I hear, that hasnt come up yet, is doing things incrementally vs all at once has benefits for some people, either because the up front cost or wait of a more full build is prohibitive, or because they arent 100% certain what they want the ultimate build to look like so they experiment their way into it. Even if the end result to arrive in the same place is more time and $, it sometimes makes more sense that way.

 

[Brendan]

Something that keeps coming up that I find a little odd.

"Buy a custom action to use with prefit barrels"

I don't quite understand buying an action for its tight tolerances and then not having a barrel custom fit to it.

It seems very similar to buying a custom rifle and then running whatever ammo is on the shelf through it.

I'll give you my answer to this. When an action is designed with tight enough tolerances, and machined reliably to those tolerances, there is zero difference between a shouldered prefit and a custom fit barrel. (Not even looping in Barrel-nut setups) Other than having your smith adjust throat length to your specs.

With older actions and actions not designed as well, the headspace had to be adjusted for that specific action. When every action is exactly the same, you don't need to do that.

But this isn't necessarily a feature of just "custom" actions. I ordered a Carbon Six Shouldered Prefit for my Tikka, torqued it on, measured with go / no-go gauges and it was dead on to spec.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'll give you my answer to this. When an action is designed with tight enough tolerances, and machined reliably to those tolerances, there is zero difference between a shouldered prefit and a custom fit barrel. (Not even looping in Barrel-nut setups) Other than having your smith adjust throat length to your specs.

With older actions and actions not designed as well, the headspace had to be adjusted for that specific action. When every action is exactly the same, you don't need to do that.

But this isn't necessarily a feature of just "custom" actions. I ordered a Carbon Six Shouldered Prefit for my Tikka, torqued it on, measured with go / no-go gauges and it was dead on to spec.

I thought this was the case before this thread but I did more reading because of it and it seems in some cases smiths will cut the tennon threads a little smaller/looser on a pre-fit if they don’t have action in hand to validate fit. The perception I have is once torqued, that shouldn’t make a notable difference in performance. Don’t know how true that is.

Would love to hear @LRI_Chad or @Shooter71 weigh in on how they’d cut tennon threads for action in hand vs not and if the approach is different based on the action.

 

[Brendan]

I thought this was the case before this thread but I did more reading because of it and it seems in some cases smiths will cut the tennon threads a little smaller/looser on a pre-fit if they don’t have action in hand to validate fit. The perception I have is once torqued, that shouldn’t make a notable difference in performance. Don’t know how true that is.

Would love to hear @LRI_Chad or @Shooter71 weigh in on how they’d cut tennon threads for action in hand vs not and if the approach is different based on the action.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure something like threads matter to me. If I screw the barrel on, torque to spec, and headspace measures correctly, is there an actual difference to the owner/shooter? I can't think of one. And, weigh that against being able to do it by myself in my basement without shipping an action / barrel back and forth and waiting for the work to be done.

Now, if you were to measure and it wasn't in spec, then you'd need to send it back to the manufacturer or to a smith to fix it, but not sure how often that happens.

Now, with a good smith, you could spec headspace on one end of the range if you or the smith thought there was a benefit, but I wouldn't have any basis to do that.

 

[Lawnboi]

Last bit on the prefit vs non. Iv had more barrels so far that were crap from, what I thought was, a vetted smith. On the second barrel from one in particular I’m just dealing with a slightly oversize end of the chamber. It’s not worth sending it and waiting again, nor would I send him any more work.

Problems are not unavoidable with either

 

[gbflyer]

I have a barrel that thread fit is incredibly loose. I did it myself, made a mistake. I am too embarrassed to measure it, I don’t even want to know. It is one of the most accurate barrels I have. It goes on a Borden custom action which is basically a highly refined footprint. I think the shouldered prefit barrel problems occur with headspace. If someone is off .001 one direction or the other on either end, it is can fall out of spec. Could be the custom action/Tikka or the barrel. Those guys that make them are brave.

 

[Gila]

If a person wants to build on a Long Action or Magnum Cartridge, then a modified 700 or custom action makes more than perfectly good sense. Also, what were short and medium action dimensions no longer apply since the advent of the LDF, high BC (heavy) “hunting bullets”. Why? because the LDF bullets need to be pulled out of the cases to make room for more powder. For example, the 284 Winchester dominates F-class right now. Sixty years ago the cartridge was designed as a short action cartridge to fit repeating rifles giving the same performance as the 270 Win. The SAMMI COAL spec is 2.8” for this cartridge.

The 284 win didn’t gain popularity until somewhat recently. The match folks have figured out that the case dimensions of the 284 Win are perfect to shove a 180 VLD out to 1,000 yards and win. It is crazy accurate! in order to do that their reamers have a long throat and they seat the bullets out long. The real estate has to come from somewhere. This cartridge that has a max SAMMI COAL of 2.8” is now actually in excess of 3.2” inches long. I like the Stiller Predator Action options:

“The Predator has a number of features that factory actions lack. It has an extended magazine well that accommodates Wyatt Outdoors extended magazine boxes for the handloader who likes to seat bullets longer than factory ammo.”

Predator Long – Stiller – Premium Custom Rifle Actions for Premium Gun Makers

stilleractions.com

 

[Kurts86]

One aspect I forgot about that I value on a custom action is having a nitrided or DLC coating on the action and bolt.

Adding cerakote or duracoat to a factory action rarely makes things better for mechanical function and it wears over time. Ideally I like my gun parts to be stainless but with another coating applied in a flatter more earthy color.

 

[rootacres]

Because they are marginally better in every category. The functionality and configurability is better in nearly every category. Better executed design etc.

It's kinda like good whiskey. . Exponentially more money for marginal gain once you hit a certain price threshold. Some see the value and don't mind the price. Some draw the line in the sand somewhere. Some drink Jack Daniels their whole life and don't feel they are missing out on anything.

I wish I could stick with Jack Daniels but once you try a Michters Rye it's hard to go back. lol

 

[BarCO]

I priced out both a tikka rebuild or a custom and the price difference wasn’t great enough to not get exactly what I wanted. I plan on using it for a long time. Ultimately either would work for me though, I am not a good enough shot to know if there would be a difference.

 

[QuackAttack]

Real world…a basic custom action like a Stiller, is an exceptional value. If you look at what it costs out the door, to buy and fully work up a 700 with trueing, bolt mods, scope mount…the Stiller is as cheap or cheaper.

A lot of custom actions are based on what you want to do and under what conditions. I have both fully worked over 700s and custom actions. Both work, but the factory actions are not even close in terms of precision. It feels like the bolt is flopping around in my 700s after I’ve been on a custom action.

Plus…and this is my why…with the custom, it is perfect. It is EXACTLY how I wanted it, in the cartridge I wanted, chambered for the exact load/throat length I chose and has an out of the box accuracy standard that was met before it shipped. It is my rifle, built for me and to my specs.

Do I really need that high of a standard? No…but I see it as combining my skills with the best gear and ensuring my performance on target is as good as it can be. Plus, it’s a lot of fun.

YMMV.

 

[Northman.]

Over here, and most other places a Tikka T3, is still a budget rifle, but an expensive one.
A T3x Lite SS, costs $1700..

So the US is still getting them dirt cheap, compared to even the country that makes them.


Its an scaled down Sako TRG action.. you can even use TRG trigger in a Tikka T3x.
Made to function in Finnish Winter War scenarios.

There is no need to get anything other then a Tikka T3x unless the reason is to upgrade to
Integral Picatinny Rail
Integral Recoil lug
Integral Bolt handle.

Pay for the increased machining time and integral features... because otherwise you are not getting a better action!

 

[BarCO]

Over here, and most other places a Tikka T3, is still a budget rifle, but an expensive one.
A T3x Lite SS, costs $1700..

So the US is still getting them dirt cheap, compared to even the country that makes them.


Its an scaled down Sako TRG action.. you can even use TRG trigger in a Tikka T3x.
Made to function in Finnish Winter War scenarios.

There is no need to get anything other then a Tikka T3x unless the reason is to upgrade to
Integral Picatinny Rail
Integral Recoil lug
Integral Bolt handle.

Pay for the increased machining time and integral features... because otherwise you are not getting a better action!

You can say the same thing about trucks, you “only need” but plenty of people get nicer trucks than they need. None of this is needs and wants are okay as well. I ended up with lone peak razor ti and also own a tikka that I was going to rebuild from. I am glad I did, I really like it and will probably still build up the tikka at some point but I have a really light custom rifle which was my goal.

 

[LRI_Chad]

I thought this was the case before this thread but I did more reading because of it and it seems in some cases smiths will cut the tennon threads a little smaller/looser on a pre-fit if they don’t have action in hand to validate fit. The perception I have is once torqued, that shouldn’t make a notable difference in performance. Don’t know how true that is.

Would love to hear @LRI_Chad or @Shooter71 weigh in on how they’d cut tennon threads for action in hand vs not and if the approach is different based on the action.

I've attempted to answer this a few times now. I return a day or two later and start over because my response emulates a labrador retriever attempting to walk in a straight line.

20+ years ago, while working for Nesika, I'd of told you that if the thread fit between the barrel and receiver isn't like a thimble on a micrometer, then the rifle is junk. Experience is not cheap, and the number of actions that we "stuck" back then while trying to do this borders on the absurd. -I was told to do something, so I did it. I also didn't know any better.

There were two major issues. Material selection and hardness (heat treat). 15-5ph stainless only gets to around 40 Rockwell C scale. Most ss rifle barrels (cut or buttoned) live around 30-ish C scale. The analogy I've settled on is that you are rubbing two pieces of chewing gum and expecting them not to stick together. Today (thankfully), we might barrel a Nesika 3x a year, and the experience from back then has taught me not to play with fire. For almost every other action out there, it's a non-issue. Thread them to a silky feel and send it. When the action is not in hand (Prefits or "Jebus nut guns" like the Ruger RPR, Savage, etc...), thread to a ring gauge and move on with your life.

As for accuracy: Again, 20+ years ago, I'd of died at the altar defending the idea of a minimal differential in pitch diameter as vital to rifle accuracy. I mean, c'mon:

-It's written on a stone tablet somewhere in the Middle East.

Today, it's not nearly as big a deal to me. We still do it, but if I'm going to be honest, it's because the gun community expects it, and I don't have the time to talk a dozen people a week off a cliff or spend all day defending myself on forums. The turning center I have here makes it an easy task, so it's of no consequence.

The truth is, on a 60* thread form, the flanks of the threads only load the joint for about 4 or 5 threads right behind the shoulder. The rest are along for the ride. Some work was done (two decades ago) to change this by using a "bent knee" type thread form where one of the threads (barrel) was kicked at an angle that intentionally caused the crest of the opposing side to bite into. The problem is that the risk of sticking the two pieces together increases exponentially. The practice never became popular in gun land (thank God!).

This is where I believe that fitting the barrel to a properly prepared receiver is a bigger deal than a lot of people might think. Ensuring the chamber, cartridge, and bolt face rotate on the same axis can only do good things. It is precisely why I have spent the better part of a half million dollars on a 5-axis mill for blueprinting receivers and bolts. The boutique "custom" actions should already have this, so we don't mess with them much. -They better have it as it is what you are paying for.

I've had clients bring guns to me where the barrel work was atrocious. I've seen thread tennons so undersized that it's flirting with criminal negligence for fear of the thing shooting itself out of the receiver ring. Yet, a lot of those guns performed exceptionally well on paper.

The one thing I will say is comparing any of this to the bench rest world is a horrible mistake, and here is why: BR guys will often "hand snap" a barrel onto a receiver and go blast 5x down range and then smile over a small ragged hole. That's great, but where was it on the paper in relation to where the optic's reticle was pointing? The next question is where will it be tomorrow, in a week, six months, etc...???

Group Center and Group Size are very different things, which is something to be cognizant of. If you play this game for any length of time, you will inevitably be confronted by a rifle that suddenly stops performing well. An experienced shooter will immediately start grabbing things and wiggle them to see if something has come loose. If it is a firearm that is used anywhere outside of the pampered firing line of a BR event, then the barrel/barrel nut must be tight if you have any expectation of the thing shooting where you point it.

Hope this helped.

C.

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

I’ve owned Tikka and Sako. I can remember when a Sako was a preferred rifle. But I’ve never considered building off one. Honestly, I don’t understand the fascination. They are great if looking for a stainless factory lefty though.

I also tend not to go custom. If I did it would be for weight, like an AnTi, a better extractor, better bolt timing and primary extraction, more solid or integral scope rail, larger recoil lug. Things like that would be my reasons for a high end action.

I think my next might be a Springfield 2020 or one of the Seekins rifles. For -$2k you get the entire setup, assembled on a high end action.

I own a Seekins, It is not a high end action. Binds terribly, doesn't feed from the mag, and based on the wear through the DLC coating is as straight as a garden hose.