Why pay for a "custom" action?

[ID_Matt]

Something that keeps coming up that I find a little odd.

"Buy a custom action to use with prefit barrels"

I don't quite understand buying an action for its tight tolerances and then not having a barrel custom fit to it.

It seems very similar to buying a custom rifle and then running whatever ammo is on the shelf through it.

If the custom actions are cut to the exact same tolerance, what advantage do you get of having the barrel "custom fit" to it?

 

[BRTreedogs]

I won’t buy an action that won’t take prefits mainly because I don’t have gunsmiths close by. A new barrel for me means packing it up and shipping it off. Or driving 10 plus hours one way. Both of which Iv done. Currently the only prefits I have are for tikkas, and while they headspace fine and they work, only a few manufacturers will make them. Versus say an impact where most gunsmiths will happily chamber a prefit.

Of course I agree you need to have the tools. Barrel vises, action wrench, torque wrench, and headspace gauges are not cheap. But it still much more affordable than near $200 for shipping both ways over years along with the risk of shipping companies, and gunsmith wait times.

Also a big deal for me is having my actions at home with barrels on them. I don’t have many, I don’t have many scopes, don’t have many stocks, and frankly cannot afford nor do I want backup rifles for when I need to ship my rifle out for a new barrel.

Just my reasoning. Iv got prefits and custom fit barrels.

Not to mention it seems ups has gone woke.
I betbin the next few years its virtually impossible to ship.

 

[QuackAttack]

If the custom actions are cut to the exact same tolerance, what advantage do you get of having the barrel "custom fit" to it?

If a machinist is building two parts that will have to fit together, but doesn’t have both items to test fit, he has to leave tolerance to accommodate variables in tooling, tool wear, etc. AI does barrels that the end user can simply screw in…but it varies.

I have seen it done, but I am leery about a drop in barrel on a 700 style action.

 

[Justin Crossley]

I won’t buy an action that won’t take prefits mainly because I don’t have gunsmiths close by. A new barrel for me means packing it up and shipping it off. Or driving 10 plus hours one way. Both of which Iv done. Currently the only prefits I have are for tikkas, and while they headspace fine and they work, only a few manufacturers will make them. Versus say an impact where most gunsmiths will happily chamber a prefit.

Of course I agree you need to have the tools. Barrel vises, action wrench, torque wrench, and headspace gauges are not cheap. But it still much more affordable than near $200 for shipping both ways over years along with the risk of shipping companies, and gunsmith wait times.

Also a big deal for me is having my actions at home with barrels on them. I don’t have many, I don’t have many scopes, don’t have many stocks, and frankly cannot afford nor do I want backup rifles for when I need to ship my rifle out for a new barrel.

Just my reasoning. Iv got prefits and custom fit barrels.

This makes total sense to me.

It can be a pain for me to have to drive five hours to drop off a rifle at the gunsmith, but luckily he usually does it while I'm at bear camp for the week, and I pick it up on my way home. He will also chamber multiple barrels for me simultaneously, so I can swap them out like you would with a regular pre-fit. Only difference is having the chamber cut exactly how I want, and the headspace from barrel to barrel is as exact as you can get it.

 

[Lawnboi]

This makes total sense to me.

It can be a pain for me to have to drive five hours to drop off a rifle at the gunsmith, but luckily he usually does it while I'm at bear camp for the week, and I pick it up on my way home. He will also chamber multiple barrels for me simultaneously, so I can swap them out like you would with a regular pre-fit. Only difference is having the chamber cut exactly how I want, and the headspace from barrel to barrel is as exact as you can get it.

The option to do both is great.

Iv dropped off a bunch of work at LRI and picked it up to/from hunts. Even driven out to shoot prairie dogs and pick up guns. Something I’ll probably do again.

I could also do the same with prefits. Order a couple at the same time.

 

[Gila]

I'm not a gunsmith but this is what I know (or think I know at least).

There is tolerance in those specs, and nothing is "perfect." A pre-fit barrel will be cut (theoretically) for the mid-range of an action specification. Most will be perfectly fine but there is always the possibility of being out of spec due to tolerance build-up with the action and barrel coming from two different places.

Hopefully, all the people installing their own pre-fit barrels are using headspace gauges. Those will cost you about $20-60 per caliber in addition to the barrel.

A smith will be cutting your chamber and headspacing it to ensure it's correct. He or she has the advantage of having both pieces in his/her hands at the same time.

I also have more confidence in a gunsmith with a good reputation cutting a better chamber than a factory worker cutting pre-fit chambers for a customer they will never see or talk to.

Machining is so good these days that a shouldered pre-fit is certainly a viable option and cheaper. The barrel makers that do offer one, will pull the old barrel and spin on the new barrel for you if requested. McGowen and Preffered both offer that service. They also give you a choice of reamers for certain cartridges. Some 700 custom actions offer a quick change barrel system.

As far as the Tikka action is concerned, there are three “cons”:
1) the recoil lug
2) action length
3) magazine length

From what I understand Tikka made a .338 action many years ago but it didn’t sell enough so they dropped it. I have a T3x in 300 win mag that I am hand-loading for but am limited to the coal of 3.347”. For the cost of about $750 I could run 3.715” AICS, but I won’t hunt with AICS mags. I tried it, not for me. If I can’t get it to shoot tight, I will sell it and buy another rifle with a long enough action/mags for an extended COAL. And of course the rilfe has to have either a floor plate or a close to flush p-mag. Short action cartridges are good to build on a Tikka action though. Howa actions are worth a look. Some barrel makers are doing a “Howage” now. Same deal as the “Remage” was using small shank savage tenons and a barrel nut.

 

[Justin Crossley]

What is it about the Tikka recoil lug that makes it a con? By not having a recoil lug between your action and barrel you are eliminating tolerance buildup. That is a positive to me.

I know that a lot of aftermarket actions have a machined recoil lug that is part of the action. Those are better than the two piece design of the R700 action but also add totally uneeded cost compared to the simplicity of the Tikka recoil lug.

 

[Axlrod]

Why? I guess you you could ask me why pay for more than one big game rifle?
I have lots of rifles, handguns, shotguns, and my first bow (42# wing recurve) and my last bow (Mathews V3). Certainly do not need a custom action.
I bought an arm load of Savage heavy barrel Model 12's back when Cabelas had them for $249. Put Black Friday SWFA 6x on them & they shoot pretty darn good. Have put prefits on 2 of them along with after market stocks.
I have screwed together quite a few AR15's in 5.56, 300B.O. 6.5 Grendel & 6 mm ARC. Had new barrels put on a couple Rem 700's.

Some of the guns I have taken big game with are, Win M70 pre & post, Rem 721 & 700, Tikka, TC Encore rifle, TC Contender handgun, S&W 629, Legendary Arms rifle, & Christensen Ridgeline.

The Christensen was the LAST hunting rifle I was ever going to buy. Even believed that when I told my wife. But I had some trouble with it, sent it back, and it still wasn't right.

So I decided I was going to have my first custom built. Alex Wheeler lives about an hour from me, and after discussing it with him at length, a plan came together. I went with the Bat Vampire with a Bartlein CF barrel, BnA tacsport trigger, Mcmillan stock in 30 Nosler.
Wheeler said he goes through every action he builds on. Including checking the ignition and timing. He said every one leaves his shop perfect, but the Bat's arrive there closer to perfect than most others.
This gun is everything I wanted, and most importantly I have great confidence in it.

For me this was a journey of many years. Lots of successful hunting trips, with good guns, but in the end, never having everything I wanted in one package.
I'm now planning another build in 25 PRC on a Bat Vampire. Might be my LAST one!

 

[Gila]

What is it about the Tikka recoil lug that makes it a con? By not having a recoil lug between your action and barrel you are eliminating tolerance buildup. That is a positive to me.

I know that a lot of aftermarket actions have a machined recoil lug that is part of the action. Those are better than the two piece design of the R700 action but also add totally uneeded cost compared to the simplicity of the Tikka recoil lug.

The tikka recoil lug fits “loose” in the stock. It is a matter of mating with the action perfectly and getting the right torque on the actions screws. Tikka went from an aluminum to a steel recoil lug on the T3x, but there is no recoil lug “pocket” in the stock. My old T3 has shot well for years so the recoil lug hasn’t been an issue. But I would like to at least see a metal “pocket” for the recoil lug in the T3x stock. If you lose torque on the forward action screw, the recoil lug could possibly flop around like a tuna. I have heard that some custom stock makers have addressed the possible issue. But don’t know what their solutions are.

 

[Dobermann]

For those wanting a Tikka (whether as-is, or just purchasing for the barrel action) to come not only with a rail, but also a *two stage trigger*, here's something I recently posted on the Hide:


I was cruising the Tikka Selector tool, thinking over options, and noticed that the new Super Varmint ... has a two-stage trigger:

Tungsten Ceracote, enlarged bolt handle, Pic rail, heavy varmint profile barrel (choice of 20 or 24" for 6.5 Creed), and 5/8-24 threaded ... Could be a great option for a barrelled action!

(Especially as Tikka are currently only showing three models as having a two-stage trigger - the Super Varmint, Arctic, and Tact A1 - and the second two of those are clearly specialised platforms/not the best candidates for aftermarket stocks.)

And, zooming in, it *almost* looks as if the Pic rail is integral on the Super Varmint. I can't tell for sure, but that would just add to the goodness...

Lots of cartridges available; here's the specs on the two 6.5 Creed models:

Complete list of cartridges available is here: https://choose.tikka.fi/usa/tikka/t3x-super-varmint

Overview of the model is here: https://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-super-varmint

Tikka's video is here: - this gives more info than the web pages, as well as a better visual look at some of the features.

 

[Justin Crossley]

The tikka recoil lug fits “loose” in the stock. It is a matter of mating with the action perfectly and getting the right torque on the actions screws. Tikka went from an aluminum to a steel recoil lug on the T3x, but there is no recoil lug “pocket” in the stock. My old T3 has shot well for years so the recoil lug hasn’t been an issue. But I would like to at least see a metal “pocket” for the recoil lug in the T3x stock. If you lose torque on the forward action screw, the recoil lug could possibly flop around like a tuna. I have heard that some custom stock makers have addressed the possible issue. But don’t know what their solutions are.

So, it's possibly a problem? If any action isn't torqued correctly, you'll have an issue. That doesn't change with a Tikka.

Many people say the Tikka recoil lug design is an issue, but it's well-known that they are consistently very accurate rifles. Many people say the plastic bottom metal will somehow break, but I've never seen anyone post a photo of it or heard of it. Many people say the plastic bolt shroud will break, although it's rarely an issue. I broke one of those myself once with an extremely over-pressure round that I fired. Lucky to still have my eye on that one.

 

[dirtytough]

I just took a look. I didn't click on every action listed, but most seemed to be out of stock. The cheapest SS action/bolt combo looked to be $785?, which included bottom plastic, plastic mag & trigger. Personally, I'd dump the plastic stuff. So a $675 mack bros (also regularly out of stock) and triggertech is going to put you in the same price category (if that's the only consideration). If you want to swap from a standard bolt to a 223 trainer or magnum cartridge, a $900 Origin (nitrided stainless steel) + $125 bolt head will be the same price with more features than even a $650 chrome moly Tikka + $400 bolt (again, if cost is the sole consideration).

Is that including the cost of a trigger with the Origin? I’ve never looked into them because the little I know they are like a Savage with a barrel nut. And I’ve never liked the idea of a barrel nut. (Probably doesn’t make a difference)

 

[BRTreedogs]

Is that including the cost of a trigger with the Origin? I’ve never looked into them because the little I know they are like a Savage with a barrel nut. And I’ve never liked the idea of a barrel nut. (Probably doesn’t make a difference)

No trigger.
No barrel nut it you order a shouldered prefit.

 

[dirtytough]

Copy copy on the barrel nut. I was pretty sure that didn’t include the trigger.

 

[Flyjunky]

Why? I guess you you could ask me why pay for more than one big game rifle?
I have lots of rifles, handguns, shotguns, and my first bow (42# wing recurve) and my last bow (Mathews V3). Certainly do not need a custom action.
I bought an arm load of Savage heavy barrel Model 12's back when Cabelas had them for $249. Put Black Friday SWFA 6x on them & they shoot pretty darn good. Have put prefits on 2 of them along with after market stocks.
I have screwed together quite a few AR15's in 5.56, 300B.O. 6.5 Grendel & 6 mm ARC. Had new barrels put on a couple Rem 700's.

Some of the guns I have taken big game with are, Win M70 pre & post, Rem 721 & 700, Tikka, TC Encore rifle, TC Contender handgun, S&W 629, Legendary Arms rifle, & Christensen Ridgeline.

The Christensen was the LAST hunting rifle I was ever going to buy. Even believed that when I told my wife. But I had some trouble with it, sent it back, and it still wasn't right.

So I decided I was going to have my first custom built. Alex Wheeler lives about an hour from me, and after discussing it with him at length, a plan came together. I went with the Bat Vampire with a Bartlein CF barrel, BnA tacsport trigger, Mcmillan stock in 30 Nosler.
Wheeler said he goes through every action he builds on. Including checking the ignition and timing. He said every one leaves his shop perfect, but the Bat's arrive there closer to perfect than most others.
This gun is everything I wanted, and most importantly I have great confidence in it.

For me this was a journey of many years. Lots of successful hunting trips, with good guns, but in the end, never having everything I wanted in one package.
I'm now planning another build in 25 PRC on a Bat Vampire. Might be my LAST one!

Alex is awesome! He’ll be building my next rifle.

 

[Balderdash]

So, it's possibly a problem? If any action isn't torqued correctly, you'll have an issue. That doesn't change with a Tikka.

Many people say the Tikka recoil lug design is an issue, but it's well-known that they are consistently very accurate rifles. Many people say the plastic bottom metal will somehow break, but I've never seen anyone post a photo of it or heard of it. Many people say the plastic bolt shroud will break, although it's rarely an issue. I broke one of those myself once with an extremely over-pressure round that I fired. Lucky to still have my eye on that one.

JC:

I like the Tikka recoil lug design. It is a step forward from attached lugs. And you are right on by pointing out that a loose front action screw will cause fits with any other design as well. If having it be quasi "loose" in stocks keeps one up at night, a little JB weld, Devcon or just about any good epoxy will yield better sleep.

As far as limited COAL on Tikkas, I haven't found that there's really a lot of meaningful gain to be had by lengthening COAL. Certainly, there's those who like to tinker, and for those the process of getting 3.6 out of a Tikka is relatively cheap, simple and well documented; however, in point of fact it's not like adding a bit of coal is going to make a long range rig out of one that wasn't before. I've ran 300 win mag 200's at 3.34 and 280 and 7mm RM 175's at 3.34 through Tikkas and all make fine long range rigs in both accuracy and velocity. Sure, I've squeezed more out of them with more length, but it really hasn't changed anything as far as ability to hit far off targets. In fact, every Tikka I've ever messed with exhibited plenty of accuracy with factory fodder to pull off shots at very far off targets.

Things will only get easier to line up out of the box with the 7 PRC, which was designed to run 175's at 3.34. Not that the 7 PRC is really needed over anything currently available to take down far off game.

 

[gbflyer]

Why buy a classic car? Why go to CO hunting if you can stay home in MT? Etc, etc. Seems a bit rhetorical, no offense. Folks find all kinds of ways to spend money on things they don’t actually need.

 

[Macintosh]

Talking about tolerances is all butterflies and rainbows until we hear from someone that has actually measured and worked with both tikkas and the boutique actions (more than just screwing barrels on and off). This is the only quantifiable thing I have ever seen on the subject :
“we discovered that Tikka does an excellent job at this already. In our tests, we found that Headspace with factory guns never changed more than .001". That is a very impressive result considering this is a production platform.” (From the LRI website page for their tikka bolts).
I dont know how that compares to the boutique actions though, or if theres more to the story.

I havent used a lot of the boutique actions, but a few. Biggest thing I noticed (pretty sure it was one of the defiance actions) was the bolt lift that cocked the gun was easier than on my tikkas…great for not moving the gun around between shots, but it was also a heavier gun and an extended bolt handle, so hard to say if it actually took less force. But I noticed it.

Aside from that, I’ve thought hard on it (including posting about it here asking for advice on actions) and decided to get a tikka instead of a boutique action twice now. To me, tikkas are by far the smoothest factory action Ive run. They may not be as smooth as some of the boutique actions(?), but they are a lot closer to that than they are to the other off the shelf guns Ive tried. I also greatly prefer a box magazine over a bdl or adl, and I want it flush for hunting. To me the tikka 3-rounders are close enough to flush. And as far as long term use I personally know several friends that have run through several barrels each and the action is still going fine. I am simply not worried about durability of the action. I had a dud tikka that did not shoot—they do exist. I moved it along and replaced it with another that shot 5 rounds into under an inch with factory ammo. swapped that barrel for a random used factory barrel from here on rokslide by myself, headspaced it (fine) and it also put the first five 5-rnd groups all under an inch with factory ammo—nothing earth shattering, but its pretty cool to screw on a random barrel, havenit headspace ok, and shoot 5 groups between 1/2” and 7/8” using my preferred factory ammo. I told myself I would get a good prefit for it at some point, but frankly I have a hard time spending the money for what can only be incremental gain. Im not shooting critters at long range and I just dont think my guns are the weak link on the range. I do know that from the perspective of having an easy-recoiling cheap to shoot gun all year that I can quickly switch to a long-action cartridge for hunting, I appreciate simply swapping mags and bolt stop. That wasnt a necessity for me, but I am taking advantage of it.
At the same time I am frustrated at the lack of aftermarket options. Its real, there are a few options for most parts I need, but there simply isnt the selection (especially used) that there is for 700-clones. I also know that, just like my glock, the tupperware stock and magazines are plenty strong and reliable…but they are catastrophically uninspiring, and that annoys me.

My answer? For me, the tikkas, perhaps with a few super-easy mods, are maybe 95% of a boutique rifle where it matters to me right now, at less than half the cost, and maybe even with a few advantages. When I get to the point where I really want to prove to myself that last few % difference is real, I’ll happily pony up for it. Until then it just doesnt make sense for me. Same time, I can easily see how someone would make that call differently.

 

[Dobermann]

Folks find all kinds of ways to spend money on things they don’t actually need.

Need?

NEED?

What is this thing "need" you speak of?

 

[UTJL]

Talking about tolerances is all butterflies and rainbows until we hear from someone that has actually measured and worked with both tikkas and the boutique actions (more than just screwing barrels on and off). This is the only quantifiable thing I have ever seen on the subject :
“we discovered that Tikka does an excellent job at this already. In our tests, we found that Headspace with factory guns never changed more than .001". That is a very impressive result considering this is a production platform.” (From the LRI website page for their tikka bolts).
I dont know how that compares to the boutique actions though, or if theres more to the story.

I havent used a lot of the boutique actions, but a few. Biggest thing I noticed (pretty sure it was one of the defiance actions) was the bolt lift that cocked the gun was easier than on my tikkas…great for not moving the gun around between shots, but it was also a heavier gun and an extended bolt handle, so hard to say if it actually took less force. But I noticed it.

Aside from that, I’ve thought hard on it (including posting about it here asking for advice on actions) and decided to get a tikka instead of a boutique action twice now. To me, tikkas are by far the smoothest factory action Ive run. They may not be as smooth as some of the boutique actions(?), but they are a lot closer to that than they are to the other off the shelf guns Ive tried. I also greatly prefer a box magazine over a bdl or adl, and I want it flush for hunting. To me the tikka 3-rounders are close enough to flush. And as far as long term use I personally know several friends that have run through several barrels each and the action is still going fine. I am simply not worried about durability of the action. I had a dud tikka that did not shoot—they do exist. I moved it along and replaced it with another that shot 5 rounds into under an inch with factory ammo. swapped that barrel for a random used factory barrel from here on rokslide by myself, headspaced it (fine) and it also put the first five 5-rnd groups all under an inch with factory ammo—nothing earth shattering, but its pretty cool to screw on a random barrel, havenit headspace ok, and shoot 5 groups between 1/2” and 7/8” using my preferred factory ammo. I told myself I would get a good prefit for it at some point, but frankly I have a hard time spending the money for what can only be incremental gain. Im not shooting critters at long range and I just dont think my guns are the weak link on the range. I do know that from the perspective of having an easy-recoiling cheap to shoot gun all year that I can quickly switch to a long-action cartridge for hunting, I appreciate simply swapping mags and bolt stop. That wasnt a necessity for me, but I am taking advantage of it.
At the same time I am frustrated at the lack of aftermarket options. Its real, there are a few options for most parts I need, but there simply isnt the selection (especially used) that there is for 700-clones. I also know that, just like my glock, the tupperware stock and magazines are plenty strong and reliable…but they are catastrophically uninspiring, and that annoys me.

My answer? For me, the tikkas, perhaps with a few super-easy mods, are maybe 95% of a boutique rifle where it matters to me right now, at less than half the cost, and maybe even with a few advantages. When I get to the point where I really want to prove to myself that last few % difference is real, I’ll happily pony up for it. Until then it just doesnt make sense for me. Same time, I can easily see how someone would make that call differently.

Can you expand on what the few easy mods are?