Action Design For Hunting

[bnewt3]

Maybe im missing it but I still dont see a clear point to this thread.

Is it a rant about how you would like to hunt with other rifles but wont because you don't consider them safe enough?

Are you trying to "learn" us something?

Are you trying to convince others to stop carrying chambered unless you have a Blaser?

Are you seeking validation because you own expensive guns?

What is your goal?

 

[Chris in TN]

I will own two claims, specifically, I do hunt with an ATZL (match/hunt) trigger. I have 3,000 plus training rounds on this rifle, I know the trigger well, I shoot better with it. To me, I can make a more ethical shot with it. I know when it breaks and I don’t think that’s wrong.

In a lifetime of hunting I have absolutely came to prefer crisp single stage triggers of no less than 1.5# and up to 3.5# but I have never once been able to prove to myself that I am hindered from making any ethical shot with a trigger of 4# or even 5# as long as I understand when it's going to break before I attempt the shot.

For context, the vast majority of my shots on game have involved a field expedient rest of some sort, with offhand every once in a great while, and a handful from prone. But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anything less than 1.5# (others might say 1# or 2# but the principle will apply across the board here) is actually going to increase the proficiency of the man pulling it, in the typical hunting scenario.

Benchrest? Ehhh maybe. Literally any field shooting scenario you might envision? No. Ain't happening.

I'm fairly certain the guys on this forum who shoot multiple thousands of rounds per year will affirm that - once the trigger has a certain degree of crispness and lightness and the user can rely on it to have a consistent pull, there's not even the slightest marginal benefit to going below some certain weight, and that weight probably isn't much less than 3#. And once you’re below a pound or so the chances of discharging because of a cold finger or a gloved finger or a twig or some piece of gear getting tangled as you raise the rifle, has to go up exponentially.

And that would worry me waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy more than any concern about a typical two position safety lever. Or what if you get a twig or piece of grass jammed into the mechanism so that when you take it off safe there’s some residual pressure there?

Muy peligroso, mi amigo.

ETA: see also ‘strain at gnat, swallow a camel’

 

[hibernation]

In a lifetime of hunting I have absolutely came to prefer crisp single stage triggers of no less than 1.5# and up to 3.5# but I have never once been able to prove to myself that I am hindered from making any ethical shot with a trigger of 4# or even 5# as long as I understand when it's going to break before I attempt the shot.

For context, the vast majority of my shots on game have involved a field expedient rest of some sort, with offhand every once in a great while, and a handful from prone. But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anything less than 1.5# (others might say 1# or 2# but the principle will apply across the board here) is actually going to increase the proficiency of the man pulling it, in the typical hunting scenario.

Benchrest? Ehhh maybe. Literally any field shooting scenario you might envision? No. Ain't happening.

I'm fairly certain the guys on this forum who shoot multiple thousands of rounds per year will affirm that - once the trigger has a certain degree of crispness and lightness and the user can rely on it to have a consistent pull, there's not even the slightest marginal benefit to going below some certain weight, and that weight probably isn't much less than 3#. And once you’re below a pound or so the chances of discharging because of a cold finger or a gloved finger or a twig or some piece of gear getting tangled as you raise the rifle, has to go up exponentially.

And that would worry me waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy more than any concern about a typical two position safety lever. Or what if you get a twig or piece of grass jammed into the mechanism so that when you take it off safe there’s some residual pressure there?

Muy peligroso, mi amigo.

ETA: see also ‘strain at gnat, swallow a camel’

At least it explains why OP is so worried about something getting caught on his trigger and setting it off. I think a big dragonfly could land on that thing and trip the trigger.

 

[LCV]

Two, I load a round in the pipe, I de-cock the gun, and I consider it safe. I hike with it, pack it for hours etc etc. I know the design well, I do think it’s perfectly secure and not irresponsible. I wouldn’t do that with a tikka, personally. Some of you have stated that you do. I’m sure your confident and familiar enough with your weapon but that is just not the choice I would make for the reasons I have already mentioned.

It seems like you’re making some kind of academic argument without any practical application

 

[Steve300xcw]

At least it explains why OP is so worried about something getting caught on his trigger and setting it off. I think a big dragonfly could land on that thing and trip the trigger.

Hell thats probly what happened. And this thread is the result of it

 

[Marbles]

In a lifetime of hunting I have absolutely came to prefer crisp single stage triggers of no less than 1.5# and up to 3.5# but I have never once been able to prove to myself that I am hindered from making any ethical shot with a trigger of 4# or even 5# as long as I understand when it's going to break before I attempt the shot.

For context, the vast majority of my shots on game have involved a field expedient rest of some sort, with offhand every once in a great while, and a handful from prone. But I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anything less than 1.5# (others might say 1# or 2# but the principle will apply across the board here) is actually going to increase the proficiency of the man pulling it, in the typical hunting scenario.

Benchrest? Ehhh maybe. Literally any field shooting scenario you might envision? No. Ain't happening.

I'm fairly certain the guys on this forum who shoot multiple thousands of rounds per year will affirm that - once the trigger has a certain degree of crispness and lightness and the user can rely on it to have a consistent pull, there's not even the slightest marginal benefit to going below some certain weight, and that weight probably isn't much less than 3#. And once you’re below a pound or so the chances of discharging because of a cold finger or a gloved finger or a twig or some piece of gear getting tangled as you raise the rifle, has to go up exponentially.

And that would worry me waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy more than any concern about a typical two position safety lever. Or what if you get a twig or piece of grass jammed into the mechanism so that when you take it off safe there’s some residual pressure there?

Muy peligroso, mi amigo.

ETA: see also ‘strain at gnat, swallow a camel’

Blaser specifically states that in match mode the trigger can fire by pressing on the back of it, then removing that pressure quickly. That is at the 8.8 ounces they spec, I wonder if the OP has modified it to be lighter?

 

[Thegman]

The OP post...



Me for responding to such a retarded post...



I didn't even know how "Blaser" was spelled...living up to my meme...

 

[Snowwolfe]

In general I don't care what type or style of safety is on a rifle because I generally do not hunt with a round in the chamber. My choice it to chamber a round after seeing an animal I want to shoot then the safety may come into play.
What is more important to me as far as how the action is designed is the trigger. I do not want side plates on the sides of the trigger if the rifle will be used in wet conditions when the temperatures can drop below freezing. Water gets in, ices up, freezes, and your screwed till its thawed.
This is why the Ruger 77 and older style Win 70 rifles are so popular up here in Alaska.

 

[goalie]

I'm actually embarrassed that I replied to a guy in a rifle safety thread that hunts with a 4oz trigger

 

[Thegman]

I'm actually embarrassed that I replied to a guy in a rifle safety thread that hunts with a 4oz trigger

What, you don't think those smarty pants Europeans use 4oz triggers for running shots during driven hunts, with their smarty pants European Design rifles?

 

[BlackTail]

 

[43.6N]

I'm actually embarrassed that I replied to a guy in a rifle safety thread that hunts with a 4oz trigger

What worries me is that some well meaning kid is going to ask ai about how to hunt with a rifle safely before going out on his first hunt. AI will summarize this thread, and tell him that walking around with a loaded chamber is something that guys on rokslide do.

 

[Kjc103]

Correction, the trigger is 250 grams…..which is 8.8 ounces. I had that wrong. It certainly doesn’t feel like a “dragon fly” landing on it will set it off. It is a light trigger, comparable to where a lot PRS shooters have there triggers set.

650 grams in the hunting mode….roughly 2 pounds.

At this point it’s all about the memes so I’m not even going to try change the trajectory if this thread, which is now pure entertainment but did want to correct my statements,

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Two, I load a round in the pipe, I de-cock the gun, and I consider it safe. I hike with it, pack it for hours etc etc. I know the design well, I do think it’s perfectly secure and not irresponsible. I wouldn’t do that with a tikka, personally. Some of you have stated that you do.

Who has stated they pack around a loaded tikka?

The whole point is folks said they don't do that, they unload it when packing it around. Maybe I am missing someone in here other than you that pack around a loaded gun but the vast majority (ie all I recall in this thread but again maybe I missed someone) don't.

 

[Thegman]

Correction, the trigger is 250 grams…..which is 8.8 ounces.

Sorry, I'll correct my meme

 

[bnewt3]

Can we please let this die? Has OP not sucked away enough of our lives?

 

[ozyclint]

What worries me is that some well meaning kid is going to ask ai about how to hunt with a rifle safely before going out on his first hunt. AI will summarize this thread, and tell him that walking around with a loaded chamber is something that guys on rokslide do.

Rokslide is included in AI content??????

Humanity is doomed.

 

[wapitispokes]

I've never had a safety get switched on me before. Not on Remingtons, Rugers, Winchesters, bolts, levers, pumps, never even on an AR. I go through thick brush all the time. Some of these posts makes me think some guys are dragging their rifle behind them on a string.

My experience is different. I have an older Ruger M77 purchased circa 1976 that has a top tang thumb safety that IMO provides "inadequate safety". It is is similar to a shotgun top tang thumb safety, but perhaps easier to move than most. The safety used to get bumped "off" very easily all the time.

The Ruger M77 rifle is mostly retired, but if used, the chamber is always empty unless ready to shoot. I would be hesitant to even chamber that rifle while "still hunting" - but might do so if solo. In which case my thumb would NOT be on the safety (someone recommended keeping thumb on safety - no way with that rifle) IMO that would simply increase the risks associated with that older M77. Nobody is allowed to use that rifle but me.

I've also had standard Remington 700 safety move off of "safe". Too frequently. Honest.

The answer is simple - no round in the chamber unless ready to fire or under other very limited circumstances where game is in close proximity and other risks are well controlled. My hunting partner and I implemented that policy nearly 40 years ago and we won't hunt with anyone that doesn't do the same.

I'm firmly in the camp of 1) of course the chamber should be empty when a rifle is on your pack 2) at least within our hunting group - the chamber should also be empty while the rifle is in your hand - with certain exceptions. Those exceptions include the following more or less in order of priority: 1) security of the rifle's safety (old M77 = totally insecure; some other newer safeties = more secure), 2) proximity of game - if I'm seeing does or cows or smell elk in dark timber I might under some circumstances chamber a round in a rifle with a secure safety if the remaining risks are deemed acceptable. 3) footing/risk of falling, 4) proximity of other humans. These are all very conscious decision explicitly evaluated. Nothing random about it.

 

[wapitispokes]

The majority of people are saying they have never had an issue with their safety or “just maintain control of the rifle”, Sure, I agree and yes, it’s totally possible it never comes up.

However, there are couple stories here about what can go wrong. One guys uncle literally lost his foot.

There you go, that’s my argument. I want to carry a rifle that has a safety design that is good enough that 98-99 percent safe goes to 100.

Again, the Blaser design is totally inert. The round cannot be fired, no matter how bad you **** up. The M77 is also extremely safe.

There you go, that’s the one thing keeping me from a Tikka. Maybe someone can work up a Tikka clone that improves on this one aspect.

I commented earlier - the "safety" on my older version Ruger M77 is less useful than I desire because it is easily bumped "off". I agree with your broader points though. When my hunting partner and I switched to mostly primitive weapon hunting (archer and muzzle loader elk mostly) we also retired our older muzzle loaders and bought early edition Knight Mk2 rifels for ONE priimary reason.

Because a Muzzle Loader always has a round in the chamber and it would be very inconveniet to try to snap a primer cap on one while hunting, safety was the number one concern. The old muzzleloaders "scared the death out of me".

The Knights had a double mechanical safety that was nearly 100% foolproof. If you are not familiar, the rifle incorporates a traditional remington style thumb safety on the right side of the action, but also includes a nut on the exposed firing pin module that can be spun forward to create a mechanical block stopping the firing pin from moving forward. In theory that nut could spin backwards but it would be difficult for that to happen and would never happen "suddenly". So while hunting you could just check both safeties periodically and occasionally the nut may have spun a half turn back but it would take many revolutions for it to spin far enough to fail.

 

[wapitispokes]

Anything said on a forum is fair game for criticism, no doubt. I knew that walking into this and I’m perfectly comfortable, personally, with a contrarian view. However, if you’re just piling on to what you think I said based on what another guy thinks I said, then that is just group think.

This particular forum, the match hunting bullet forum, would be utterly skewered for the claims made here and even accused of being “unethical”, on most other forums. Using match bullets is actually a pretty wild idea outside of this place. Fortunately, you’re also not afraid to be contrarians.

I will own two claims, specifically, I do hunt with an ATZL (match/hunt) trigger. I have 3,000 plus training rounds on this rifle, I know the trigger well, I shoot better with it. To me, I can make a more ethical shot with it. I know when it breaks and I don’t think that’s wrong. I can “arm” and “de-arm” my Blaser easily and at will. It’s never getting hauled around with a 4 oz trigger and “safety” off. Repeat, I’m not hailing it around, loaded chamber, ready to fire, 4 oz trigger.

If needed, I can set it to “hunt”, which raises the pull weight by about a pound (still quite light) if I were ever wearing gloves or my fingers were cold.

Two, I load a round in the pipe, I de-cock the gun, and I consider it safe. I hike with it, pack it for hours etc etc. I know the design well, I do think it’s perfectly secure and not irresponsible. I wouldn’t do that with a tikka, personally. Some of you have stated that you do. I’m sure your confident and familiar enough with your weapon but that is just not the choice I would make for the reasons I have already mentioned.

I dont think either of those two things are irresponsible but hey, if you do, I’m not going to fight you on it. We just see it differently.

Things I definitely did not say:

Tikkas are un-safe
Tikkas aren’t good
Let me tell you how much better my expensive rifle is, yours sucks.
I don’t believe in muzzle control or proper firearms safety
I know more than you, you’re dumb.
I’m an expert.
Everyone should buy a Blaser because everything else sucks.

Someone mentioned I was talking “at” the group instead of with the group. I think that’s fair, I can be pretty condescending. It was definitely my intention to do that to specific people a few times, not to the whole group. I actually have immense respect for the folks here because I think out of all the forums, this group has the highest percentage of people that take shooting seriously, as a craft and who actually spend time hunting. I also think if you guys get past the messenger (me) and look at the inherent merits of the design I’m describing, there’s good stuff there that I wish was a more available and affordable design.

IMO, you have done a great job being respectful while too many others frankly have not done so. Also, IMO, for a forum to function as a useful tool of information for a large group it is important for everyone to be respectful, and I don't think that has been the case in the case of this discussion. I seem to be in the minority, but I think you deserve better.