Why pay for a "custom" action?

[BRTreedogs]

Anti

 

[Justin Crossley]

Something that keeps coming up that I find a little odd.

"Buy a custom action to use with prefit barrels"

I don't quite understand buying an action for its tight tolerances and then not having a barrel custom fit to it.

It seems very similar to buying a custom rifle and then running whatever ammo is on the shelf through it.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Something that keeps coming up that I find a little odd.

"Buy a custom action to use with prefit barrels"

I don't quite understand buying an action for its tight tolerances and then not having a barrel custom fit to it.

It seems very similar to buying a custom rifle and then running whatever ammo is on the shelf through it.

Easy at home install, or minimal and quicker install at a local Smith.
Timeline I bet I could have a prefit at my house in 10 days.
Cost if your a vet and willing to wait on a proof you get a pretty good deal.

From what I've read in reviews they got this prefit thing down pat. They usually even offer 2-3 Freebore options per caliber.

I'm not sure you really need a Smith any more unless you want a very specific reamer.

 

[BRTreedogs]

With the advances in machining, drop in trigger etc, and these "custom" actions having all the upgrades, and prefits.
Why do you need a Smith any more unless you are having and older rifle repaired?
I can learn how to bed.
The only slight edge is I say you are slightly, slightly less likely to get a lemon, and some people prefer more of a turn key setup.

 

[chindits]

I wouldn’t. I’m frugal. My 1990s Model 70 bought new from Walmart still kills elk plenty dead and I just don’t sit around the house cycling it’s action thinking how smooth it is.

I’be been pretty frugal and blue collar all my life and could retire right now recession be damned, but I’ll wait until I can go back on military health insurance in two years. That’s being frugal since I don’t work for fun anymore. It’s now a burden.

If I was going to blow a couple grand I would upgrade my table saw and thickness planer. I make stuff with that. My rifles just burn reloading components and they don’t make a thing until the moment I harvest. Then they just make protein.

 

[Justin Crossley]

4. Longevity. A tikka or Remington action is not made to be ran hard for years like a custom action. After the second barrel you could start to see galling in the lugs. So if you shoot a lot you could end up needing another action.

For me its just one more thing I do not have to worry about. This is from someone who shot a blueprinted 700 for 2 years in the PRS. At the end of my second barrel it was sloppy as could be and the lugs started galling pretty bad. Did the rifle shoot great? yes! Would it have been just fine for a hunting rifle? yes!

So for me the longevity and smoothness is the biggest reason to go with a custom over the Remington's or Tikkas. They are both a great bang for the buck though and if you are not shooting a lot then it might not be worth the additional cost. Tikkas are better than 700s out of the box but if you think that you might move to a custom action in the future then the 700 footprint is hard to stray away from.

Before it gets asked I do have a buddy right now who is 1.5 barrels in on a tikka and he is having galling issues. Very small sample size but with the smaller diameter action and smaller lugs it makes sense that there would be a little more pressure on the lugs. I still think they are the best factory action on the market at this time and they are just not designed for years of use and abuse. Not really a ding on the action just something to be aware of.

I'll have to look over my Tikka 6.5-06 action that is currently on it's fourth barrel. I've never noticed galling on it before and I have run it at max load it's entire life.

 

[Kurts86]

I bought a custom action because I’d already gone through the exercise of spending $2500 in parts on a $500 base rifle and I was unhappy with it in the end. Trying to save 10-20% off a build cost on the core component is a poor decision based on my experience. Stocks come and go, barrels burn out but the action stays for a long time.

Prefit barrels let me do gunsmithing work myself and it saves me months of wait time.

Buying a stand alone action also gets rid of the infuriating exercise of removing a factory barrel before a start a project.

I don’t really like the R700 action over Sako/Tikka/X-Bolt action but you can’t avoid it for selection of stocks/aftermarket support.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Why don't you just @ me if you are going to talk about me

Custom action. Prefit Barrel. Factory Ammo.

30-round aggregated data (LINK HERE)
Median 3-shot group: 0.469 MOA
Median 4-shot group: 0.534 MOA
Median 5-shot group: 0.601 MOA
Median 10-shot group: 0.790 MOA
Median 20-shot group: 0.906 MOA
Aggregate 30-shot group: 1.085 MOA

I've posted a bunch of other groups shot on paper with that set-up (LINK HERE to a handful of groups in your zero check thread). Consistent 1/2 - 5/8 MOA 5-shot groups with a 10-shot MV SD of 13 fps. Yes, you can make slight numerical gains with better ammo, and maybe marginal gains with a "better barrel", but not noticeable for hunting/field/practical/etc. type shooting.

When you need barrels changed, it becomes a pain to mail off an action to a smith every time. Much more convenient to keep the action in use and just order barrels in advance to maintain uninterrupted use. If you don't shoot a bunch, don't mind having the action away for a few weeks/months, or have someone local that fits you in, that might not be an issue for you.

I like it! I would also argue you would have the exact same results with a Tikka action and prefit barrel.

Hopefully, everyone knows I'm not saying anyone is wrong to buy a custom action. I definitely believe in buying what works for you and what makes you happy. I just figured this whole discussion would be good for people deciding on a build. There have been a lot of good posts already about why everyone chooses one or the other. And sometimes both!

 

[svivian]

I think Tikkas are a great option if

A) You already own one and want to customize

B) are on a budget and need a gun to get started with that later down the road can customize over time.

Otherwise, if I'm starting from scratch, it doesn't make a lot of sense to buy a rifle for only the action and have to deal with stripping it down for essentially almost the same cost.

 

[feanor]

I’m benefiting from this thread. I’ve kicked around all of these ideas many times and am still unsure what to do. I have a machine shop and tools, but don’t know if I would mess something up in the build process. Then I look at a seekins or something, and think “they’ve already gone through the process so I don’t have to.”

But then in the back of my mind, I’ll always wonder what if I went custom?

 

[wind gypsy]

Something that keeps coming up that I find a little odd.

"Buy a custom action to use with prefit barrels"

I don't quite understand buying an action for its tight tolerances and then not having a barrel custom fit to it.

It seems very similar to buying a custom rifle and then running whatever ammo is on the shelf through it.

What is the difference between a shouldered pre-fit barrel for an action built to specs and a barrel "custom fit" to an action that was confirmed to measure to the same specs?

I thought the only difference was confirmed measurement of action for headspace which becomes irrelevant if the action is built to spec?

 

[Formidilosus]

4. Longevity. A tikka or Remington action is not made to be ran hard for years like a custom action. After the second barrel you could start to see galling in the lugs. So if you shoot a lot you could end up needing another action.

Just the one action galling? If so, I’d lean heavily towards that being a one of situation as I’ve seen more than a dozen tikkas that have burned out at least two barrels. To put numbers to it, 10,000+ rounds. Several with between 10-20,000 rounds, and a couple with more than 20,000 rounds on them. I have not seen, nor have the smiths seen any sign of galling or damage to any part of them.

 

[Formidilosus]

For every one that is getting a “custom” because it’s better- are you just ignoring the trigger issue? Remington based triggers are absolutely one of the least reliable, most susceptible to debris/ice/snow of any trigger system made. None of them are truly drop safe. This is not just factory R700 triggers- all 700 compatible triggers have this problem by nature of the design.

 

[Justin Crossley]

What is the difference between a shouldered pre-fit barrel for an action built to specs and a barrel "custom fit" to an action that was confirmed to measure to the same specs?

I thought the only difference was confirmed measurement of action for headspace which becomes irrelevant if the action is built to spec?

I'm not a gunsmith but this is what I know (or think I know at least).

There is tolerance in those specs, and nothing is "perfect." A pre-fit barrel will be cut (theoretically) for the mid-range of an action specification. Most will be perfectly fine but there is always the possibility of being out of spec due to tolerance build-up with the action and barrel coming from two different places.

Hopefully, all the people installing their own pre-fit barrels are using headspace gauges. Those will cost you about $20-60 per caliber in addition to the barrel.

A smith will be cutting your chamber and headspacing it to ensure it's correct. He or she has the advantage of having both pieces in his/her hands at the same time.

I also have more confidence in a gunsmith with a good reputation cutting a better chamber than a factory worker cutting pre-fit chambers for a customer they will never see or talk to.

 

[wind gypsy]

I started off on the custom rifle journey thinking the action was the best place to skimp and the barrel, stock, trigger is where i should focus more. But after spending a bunch of time with a nice smooth action, you dont want something stiff/rough feeling. It just makes you think less of the gun every time you shoot it even if it shoots fine.

So far i've seen possible Tikka negatives vs 700 clone custom in this thread as:
1. More likely to have lugs gall with lots of use
2. Not machined in Pic rail
3. Bolt Handle connection not as robust if you have to hammer it open
4. Bolt stop shearing
5. Fewer trigger options
6. Looser tolerances

My thoughts on these:

1. More likely to have lugs gall with lots of use
Is this fact? I've heard of plenty of customs galling too, BAT especially a while back.
2. Not machined in Pic rail
No denying a machined in pic rail is preferable over an attached one and there are lots of good options for rings. It's also heavier if you're not gong to use a pic rail and I'd have zero concerns with a bonded rail using sheer pins causing issues.
3. Bolt Handle connection not as robust if you have to hammer it open
Legitimate point. Seems like you'll need to run dangerously hot ammo or really get mud stuck for that ever to be a concern though?
4. Bolt stop shearing
Seems pretty common in comp guns with people running bolts hard/fast. Not particularly concerned in my uses but i ‘spose it only takes once to change a mind.
5. Fewer trigger options
I buy that the m700 trigger is a weakness when it comes to reliability. I have a lone peak with TT diamond and honestly only real thing that i clearly prefer over a tikka trigger is the trigger blade. I am not a fan of the tikka ones. Reliability aspect and the fact that you don't have to buy an aftermarket trigger if you have a tikka action usually makes me favor the tikka here.
6. looser tolerances
Seems like an over generalization? I know lots of customs don't even have ideal consistent lug contact. Would love to hear from someone who has measured a bunch of tikkas and customs on the real story and trends in relation to this.

 

[BRTreedogs]

For every one that is getting a “custom” because it’s better- are you just ignoring the trigger issue? Remington based triggers are absolutely one of the least reliable, most susceptible to debris/ice/snow of any trigger system made. None of them are truly drop safe. This is not just factory R700 triggers- all 700 compatible triggers have this problem by nature of the design.

My sample size is much smaller then yours.
But in everyone except "the internet" I've only ever been around one Rem700 ND and im betting it was user error and he just wouldn't admit it.

So in my experience it just doesn't happen.

I did have one trigger tech that I got used that I lowered to the bottom of its advertised threshold that slam fired. Once I adjusted it back up a little no issues.

Not everyone is running around treating there rifles like a glock/socom/ navy seal commercial.

I hate the feel of a tikka. They just feel like a POS imo, I know they supposedly do what they do.
It would take something large to push me over the edge to tikka.
I'm more matched to you in how I feel about ARs just being a tool.

I could possibly get on a Sako train. But from people that live in N Utah if just heard to many poor things about the owner of that rifle company.

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm not a gunsmith but this is what I know (or think I know at least).

There is tolerance in those specs, and nothing is "perfect." A pre-fit barrel will be cut (theoretically) for the mid-range of an action specification. Most will be perfectly fine but there is always the possibility of being out of spec due to tolerance build-up with the action and barrel coming from two different places.

Hopefully, all the people installing their own pre-fit barrels are using headspace gauges. Those will cost you about $20-60 per caliber in addition to the barrel.

A smith will be cutting your chamber and headspacing it to ensure it's correct. He or she has the advantage of having both pieces in his/her hands at the same time.

I also have more confidence in a gunsmith with a good reputation cutting a better chamber than a factory worker cutting pre-fit chambers for a customer they will never see or talk to.

Interesting. I'd love to hear from smiths who turn out a bunch of barrels for impact/LP/Zermatt actions on if they ever or how often they deviate from that middle range when chambering and cutting threads for a specific action.

 

[wind gypsy]

I hate the feel of a tikka. They just feel like a POS imo, I know they supposedly do what they do.
It would take something large to push me over the edge to tikka.
I'm more matched to you in how I feel about ARs just being a tool.

The action feels like a POS? What about it feels that way? Because i think it's just the opposite compared to basically any other rifle off the shelf.

 

[BRTreedogs]

The action feels like a POS? What about it feels that way? Because i think it's just the opposite compared to basically any other rifle off the shelf.

Idk man.
Its not logical. I'm not saying my feelings are logical.
One of the big detractors for me was the full length bolt in a 223 action.
I'm sure I could take the bolt to my buffer and smooth it out.
Idk its kinda like latching on to a girl thats a little to big at the bar. Seems great when im headed in but once I get it in my hands I'm just like blah. Hope I can set this back without anyone seeing me.

And I despise detachable mags.

 

[Lawnboi]

Something that keeps coming up that I find a little odd.

"Buy a custom action to use with prefit barrels"

I don't quite understand buying an action for its tight tolerances and then not having a barrel custom fit to it.

It seems very similar to buying a custom rifle and then running whatever ammo is on the shelf through it.

I won’t buy an action that won’t take prefits mainly because I don’t have gunsmiths close by. A new barrel for me means packing it up and shipping it off. Or driving 10 plus hours one way. Both of which Iv done. Currently the only prefits I have are for tikkas, and while they headspace fine and they work, only a few manufacturers will make them. Versus say an impact where most gunsmiths will happily chamber a prefit.

Of course I agree you need to have the tools. Barrel vises, action wrench, torque wrench, and headspace gauges are not cheap. But it still much more affordable than near $200 for shipping both ways over years along with the risk of shipping companies, and gunsmith wait times.

Also a big deal for me is having my actions at home with barrels on them. I don’t have many, I don’t have many scopes, don’t have many stocks, and frankly cannot afford nor do I want backup rifles for when I need to ship my rifle out for a new barrel.

Just my reasoning. Iv got prefits and custom fit barrels.