Who has moved UP in caliber for elk

[SummitsCalling]

I’m adding a couple .284s to the stable, not really to fix any “problem”, more because I had an old model 7 243 with a shot out tube (becoming 7-08ai), and a Tikka I wanted to build a custom out of (280ai). The 280 will be capable at a longer range than what I’m currently shooting, but then again they are all capable further than I will shoot game. Overall, I started with 30s and 338s a few decades ago, went smaller a while back with zero issues, now I’m trying the middle ground. I’ve never owned a 7 of any sort before.

I wish the 280 Ackley wasn’t the current cartridge of the month. I’ve been wanting to build one since long before they became a SAAMI cartridge.

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When did it become the current cartridge of the month, I miss something? Anything 6.5 (insert letters here) are the norm flavors by every manufacturer. Those calibers always come out first, because look at the sales #s.

I've used the 280ai for a long time, literally never have run into someone in the field with one, let alone anyone in my circle or even at the office. It's not popular by a long stretch, hence I can still find factory ammo on the shelf, just like the 25-06, tells me all I need to know.

 

[wyodan]

I jumped from a 6.5 Swede to an ought-six.
That count?

It should count and is most respectable.

 

[EmperorMA]

This stuff is really interesting to me, the "anecdotal" evidence that many people won't accept. Sometimes bc doesn't matter one bit. What bullets were you shooting from the 270? I got some 150gr sierra game kings to try. They have a long history of killing elk.

I have killed elk with the 130 NBT, NPT and Hornady Interlock SP along with the 150 NPT and Interlock SP. Not really much of a difference in how any of those bullets easily killed elk from either the 270 Win or 270 Roy, with the exception being how impressively fast the bullets seemed to blow through elk when fired from the .270 Weatherby.

 

[DawnPatrol]

I read a lot of these threads about the ideal caliber/load/ammo for elk, so here is my attempt at a unifying theory of all the commentary (not applicable to long-range hunting, ie. over 400 yds):

Use the biggest, fastest, best-terminal-performing bullet you can reliably put on target.

Basically, it's a balance between being not being scared of your rifle (and therefore inaccurate) and the undeniable physics that a bigger, faster-moving bullet (of the same construction/performance on impact) will do more damage to your target. There's an upper limit to this rule (I'm not advocating for using an elephant gun on elk). The lower limit seems to be governed by how good a shot you are and how patient you are willing to be for the right shot to present itself.

Am I missing something here? (please tell me, because I'm starting to think about taking my kids elk hunting, and the lighter end of the spectrum intrigues me).

FWIW: I have shot my .30-06 (using Barnes Vortex factory ammunition with 180 grn TTSX bullets) into 4 elk. None have gone more than 20 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

This is a long way of saying I don’t think the light guns and small calibers is the way to go if “long range” is your goal on elk. I don’t consider it “long range” until you get beyond 500 yards.

You’re problem isn’t “big” or “small”- it’s monos.

 

[Anello]

I've killed a few Bulls with my bow, but not rifle yet, so this post is not totally applicable to the OP question. Call this boredom and appreciation of this thread as I am on another god forsaken BAR study break. Someday this war is gonna end ...

So, here goes. I started rifle hunting pigs in CA with an 06. All the old timers told me that was the only one I needed, so I only had an 06 for about 15 years. Killed Deer, Pigs and exotics with it and only shot core locts. When I did my part, it was over quick. But, elk hunting was always with the bow OTC as I cant draw a damn rifle tag to save my life ... and I was an idiot bow purist for some time. Anyhow, the 06 never got to hunt Elk, unfortunately (later converted to a 35 wheel). Then I wanted something lighter to hunt high country mule deer with, so I bought a Rem 700 Mountain Rifle in .280 Rem. Got lucky as it shoots far more accurate than I do. Kills everything I hit. For whatever reason, that rifle is an extension of my arm. I shoot it offhand in hunting scenarios really well, which is nothing short of a miracle given my propensity for buck fever or bouts of instant insanity when I see game. But, It Missed a few when I had too much time to set up and think about it. So, I thought I needed a bigger round to knock down the mountain boars where we were hunting on longer cross canyon shots (it was the cartridge's fault, not mine, you see).

So, Then I bought a Rem .300 RSAUM from an old hunting guide I shared some time with. He said it didn't shoot well, so I got a deal on it. It had a brake on it and it was the loudest gun on earth, but, I killed a pile of pigs with it, including some real bruisers, and it knocked the hell out of them. My longest shot to date on an animal was with that gun (468 yards on a 250 LB nasty old Boar, which is as far as I will shoot at game). Turns out that rifle just needed cleaning ... and (2) sets of ear protection.

Then I was convinced by the internet that I needed a big round to buck the wind and knock down Pigs (and hopefully Elk) at distance. So, I bought a .338 LaPua and sold the RSAUM. No brake. Not terrible recoil, and it shot accurate as heck. But, it never left the truck as I didn't like carrying it (a big factor for those considering magnums with 26" barrels that you only learn once you are in the field). Then I bought a .300 Win Mag, which also never left the truck. Same issue. Sold both.

Long point being, the .280 Rem is always with me, and it has killed a ton of animals because I am so comfortable with it. A 140 grain TTSX or 139 GMX traveling around 2900-3000 FPS out of the barrel with good shot placement is all I have ever needed. When I do my job, everything dies. Based on the amount of big boars and Deer it has decimated, I have no desire to reinvent the wheel when I finally do draw an Elk rifle tag. So, I agree with several of the posts on this thread. A giant caliber won't stack more game. A reasonable rifle/cartridge platform you shoot well absolutely will. A 6.5 CM in the right hands has and will kill Elk, or other big game as well as a big magnum. But the key to all these discussions is the concept of "reasonableness." If you shoot a CM really, really well, and you shoot a good bullet, you are fine. If you shoot an 06, or a .30 cal magnum really well, that'll do, and likely a bit better based on math. But it is by no means a necessity. I've taken several folks hunting that had new whiz-bang $5,000 super mega magnums that resulted in scope cuts and wounded animals. A reasonable rifle/cartridge would likely have solved that.

All the East Coasters or new western shooters I see posting on this site (not being disparaging, at all, as I like the interaction) should really be considering a rifle/cartridge that Is reasonable for the game you are chasing that YOU shoot really well. If that is a 6.5 something, a .270 something, or a 7MM something, so be it. Just shoot straight, and use enough bullet. I have no problem making fun of myself for thinking I needed more. Just please don't make the same mistakes I did.

 

[coloradoan]

Thanks everyone. I know that anecdotal evidence isn’t always helpful but I wanted to hear personal testimonials. I know there’s not much argument anymore whether or not a 6.5 creedmoor or 260 will kill an elk at 300ish yards - but I am interested in people who mostly hunt at 300 yards or less and choose to go with something bigger, whether it’s a 30-06 or a magnum.

I might as well point out that the other day I shot 140 gr American Gunner ammo in a 6.5 creedmoor tikka and 178 Eld-x in a 30-06 tikka and was surprised by how little difference I felt in recoil. I dunno, maybe I have nerve damage or something. I was expecting more.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

My progression
308
30/06
338
270 and holding

almost identical to mine substitute a 300wsm for the 338. 270 is doing everythig w/ a 308 backup.

 

[jjdub]

I shoot .300 win mag with 190 gr noslers. very very very accurate with my hand loads. but I have seen elk dropped with .270's at 350 yards with one shot, and even .243 before.... I read once you want 1500 ft/lbs of energy to kill an elk. not sure if that is science or opinion, but obviously it depends on the location of the shot. If that energy number is true, you can do some caclulcations with ballistics to find an effective range based on any caliber, projectile weight and speed. i use a free 'bullet drop' app. it's great.

 

[LBennington]

I’m adding a couple .284s to the stable, not really to fix any “problem”, more because I had an old model 7 243 with a shot out tube (becoming 7-08ai), and a Tikka I wanted to build a custom out of (280ai). The 280 will be capable at a longer range than what I’m currently shooting, but then again they are all capable further than I will shoot game. Overall, I started with 30s and 338s a few decades ago, went smaller a while back with zero issues, now I’m trying the middle ground. I’ve never owned a 7 of any sort before.

I wish the 280 Ackley wasn’t the current cartridge of the month. I’ve been wanting to build one since long before they became a SAAMI cartridge.

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I’d be curious to know how the 7-08ai performs or what you are hoping to get out of it. I’ve had an itch to build one, just haven’t done it yet.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

If it doesn’t hit the vitals, a big fast bullet wont save you from poor shooting.


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Ever heard of hydrostatic shock?
Its real.
I'm not suggesting that a big bullet will always make up for poor shooting but it certainly helps!
I've seen elk hit poorly (too far back, and quartering towards) with a 300 prc using a 215, and a 225 eldm, in both cases that fast heavy bullet did tremendous internal damage and was lethal.

A friend recently shot a bull with his 6.5 creed at 280 yards, one in the scapula and one behind the lungs.
That bull didn't die and covered some ground before he got a follow up heart shot, the shot in the scapula barely made it to one lung and left a tiny hole
That's when I decided to move away from my 6.5 for elk, unless I'm hunting close in heavy timber.

 

[The Fish Box]

You’re problem isn’t “big” or “small”- it’s monos.

I don’t entirely agree with you on that one.

Bullets used were well within their expansion velocities and they performed well. Granted they didn’t explode like the Berger’s do in my 338. In the smaller cartridge the animals just don’t react like they do with the bigger ones even with a similar hit.

 

[TREE ‘EM]

It all comes down to shot placement and bullet construction.

When I was a young man, my friend Sam Ruben who was much older and wiser than me, advised that I get myself a 6.5x55. At every opportunity he would tell me the virtues of a long heavy bullet at moderate velocity coupled with minimal recoil. Sam killed nearly every species of big game on earth from the 1930’s through the 70’s including the African Big 5 with his sporterized 6.5 Swede.

It took a long time for what Sam was trying to teach me 40 years ago to sink in. When I see folks saying the 6.5 isn’t enough for whatever game animal, I just smile and think of my friend Sam.

 

[slick]

Progression from...
30-06 to
264 win mag to
7mm-08 to
300win mag


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[Newtosavage]

You know what's funny is that 36 years after getting it for Christmas, I still can't understand why my old Winchester 30-30 gives me more DRT's than any other rifle I've used. It's unreal what that dorky little cartridge does to critters.

 

[Rifleman86]

Switching from 6.5 CM to 7 SAUM. Had a not to great experience with the CM, but I blame that on the bullet.

That said I feel a way more confident with the 7 SAUM, especially at range or with not so perfect shots. I’m sure it’s 90% in my head, but it helps me sleep at night.

To me 7 SAUM/280 AI, which are near ballistic twins are the perfect balance of power, shoot ability and long range performance with regards to Elk sized critters.

 

[Formidilosus]

Ever heard of hydrostatic shock?
Its real.

Ok. What is “hydrostatic shock”, and how does it kill?

I'm not suggesting that a big bullet will always make up for poor shooting but it certainly helps!
I've seen elk hit poorly (too far back, and quartering towards) with a 300 prc using a 215, and a 225 eldm, in both cases that fast heavy bullet did tremendous internal damage

And similarly constructed bullets in 6.5 don’t create tremendous internal damage?

 

[Formidilosus]

I don’t entirely agree with you on that one.

Bullets used were well within their expansion velocities and they performed well. Granted they didn’t explode like the Berger’s do in my 338. In the smaller cartridge the animals just don’t react like they do with the bigger ones even with a similar hit.

So because they “were well within their expansion velocities” monos and lead core bullets create the same wounds?

 

[JakeSCH]

I moved up from a 308 to 300 WM to extend my effective range...and use a muzzle brake on it (lower recoil than my light weight 308).

If you only care about 300 yards or less, I would probably focus more on bullet choice than changing calibers. For example, I would look at the 140 grain sledge hammer bullet for your creed.

 

[Newtosavage]

Ok. What is “hydrostatic shock”, and how does it kill?



And similarly constructed bullets in 6.5 don’t create tremendous internal damage?

After killing lots of things with a slow, heavy, dorky 30-30 and more recently with fast, light premium controlled expansion bullets, I am a firm believer that there is a lot of wasted energy that leaves the critter and flies well on past it. I had a lot more bang-flops with my 30-30 and 7.62x39 using conventional cup-and-core bullets inside 150 yards than I have had with bonded bullets and monos traveling over 2700 fps. at those distances. This is on deer and pigs. Bigger stuff, I have less experience with.

The last deer I shot was a relatively small whitetail spike using a 120 TTSX traveling about 2750 at impact. Perfect bullet placement behind the shoulders at 220 yards. Entrance hole was .284 and exit was about 3/4". That stupid little 100 lb. buck ran almost 200 yards, weaving through brush the whole way. Took me a good 30 min. to find him (the brush here is very thick in places). I've shot a half dozen deer that size with a 7.62x39 139-grain SST going all of 2200 at impact, and none of them went more than 30 yards, with most bang-flops.