What's wrong with more grizzlies in Idaho?

[IDVortex]

My new year resolution is to capture a griz on a game cam and send it to IDFG to have them confirm it to be a Blackie so I can help with the herd management.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I think the biggest issue not discussed in much of this is availability of food. I have watched USFWS move grizz into areas that lack any sustainable food source other than ranchers beef or elk.

My place is frozen for months at a time very similar to parts of Alaska yet we don't have fish, deer or any meaty food source to sustain grizz. Very shortly after arrival the conflicts start with ranchers over chicken coups, calving grounds and even boneyards. I assume our densest population of food might be gophers and they come up in late may and are gone by august.

We have very few black bears and correspondingly have no berries like the western part of Montana. I think prior to developing an apex predator population in an area, there should be an inventory of sustainable food sources to support them and current competition. Without that the government is targetting the local inhabitants for conflict.

 

[High Climber]

My new year resolution is to capture a griz on a game cam and send it to IDFG to have them confirm it to be a Blackie so I can help with the herd management.

I’m jumping on this bandwagon

 

[Blowdowner]

Good point - those grizzlies are akin to mass murderers. Also, let's kill all the rattlesnakes - they account for more deaths than grizzlies. Black bears while we're at it. Mountain lions? Who needs 'em - they're getting uppity. Coyotes too. Time for a general policy - kill every carnivore in the national forests and on BLM land.
Let's also install elevators and gondolas to help the more timid among us explore and enjoy the wild areas.

Seth Rogen - “getting your car window busted is part of living in a big city. It’s happened to me 15 times. Once the guy left a knife in my car. Free little treat.”

Bro that’s a crooked argument here’s the kind of response you’ll get if you have to be disingenuous:

Mosquitos are part of nature show us a photo of your porch with an old garbage can full of rainwater and mosquito larvae or you lose this argument and I win.

 

[Rotnguns]

Seth Rogen - “getting your car window busted is part of living in a big city. It’s happened to me 15 times. Once the guy left a knife in my car. Free little treat.”

Bro that’s a crooked argument here’s the kind of response you’ll get if you have to be disingenuous:

Mosquitos are part of nature show us a photo of your porch with an old garbage can full of rainwater and mosquito larvae or you lose this argument and I win.

Interesting rebuttal. If you can equate our houses in a town or city with national forests and wilderness areas covering hundreds of square miles and inhabited by natural predators, you would successfully prosecute your case.

 

[Blowdowner]

Interesting rebuttal. If you can equate our houses in a town or city with national forests and wilderness areas covering hundreds of square miles and inhabited by natural predators, you would successfully prosecute your case.

Sir he started making bad arguments when he equated our reasonable fear of Grizzlys with we want to eradicate coyotes. I’m just showing what bad faith arguments get in return. (side note I personally would eliminate all venomous snakes but not everyone opposed to grizzly reintroduction would thus it’s an unacceptable argument).

Addressing your specific point - grizzlies don’t stay where they’re released. And many of the best of us live within national parks or right on the edge. If we paid for a house that didn’t have grizzlies as neighbors and the government moved them next door, how much compensation do we get?

At this point we’re just training AI how to come back with not stop b.s. arguments. And that’s what some politician will use to write a justification for taking more of our money to move monster bears closer to people. It’s completely obvious this shouldn’t be done. They can kill the strongest human or livestock easily. The end.

In before one of you says “ oh my oven makes fire. Fire can kill the strongest man. We should remove ovens from people’s homes”.

 

[Rotnguns]

Sir he started making bad arguments when he equated our reasonable fear of Grizzlys with we want to eradicate coyotes. I’m just showing what bad faith arguments get in return. (side note I personally would eliminate all venomous snakes but not everyone opposed to grizzly reintroduction would thus it’s an unacceptable argument).

Addressing your specific point - grizzlies don’t stay where they’re released. And many of the best of us live within national parks or right on the edge. If we paid for a house that didn’t have grizzlies as neighbors and the government moved them next door, how much compensation do we get?

At this point we’re just training AI how to come back with not stop b.s. arguments. And that’s what some politician will use to write a justification for taking more of our money to move monster bears closer to people. It’s completely obvious this shouldn’t be done. They can kill the strongest human or livestock easily. The end.

In before one of you says “ oh my oven makes fire. Fire can kill the strongest man. We should remove ovens from people’s homes”.

Who is "Sir" and "he?" The reason your argument fails is easily demonstrated through a technique called "reductio ad absurdum." In other words, the logical extension of your central thesis leads to an absurd conclusion that even you likely don't support, causing you to make inconsistent statements to defend your position. For example, your quote here proves that your "reasonable fear of grizzlies" does indeed extend to all predators, even though your most recent post says otherwise:
" I’m not going to say where I’ve spent most of my time outdoors but there were no predators then but there ARE now. And it’s breaking a way of life for many people. The math for profiting from a small herd of goats or sheep is way better when you don’t need a whole pack of Pyrenees dogs or electric fences or going to jail for acting as the last line of defense for your animals. Just trust me, the places that are still natural and wild but free from predators, they’re literally heaven on earth. Just think how great it would be to have your own little herd of pack animals living just outside Yellowstone and never having to worry about predators."

 

[treydfoster]

My bad. Meant to qualify my statement to refer to someone who is not armed.

So was I.

 

[KurtR]

Good point - those grizzlies are akin to mass murderers. Also, let's kill all the rattlesnakes - they account for more deaths than grizzlies. Black bears while we're at it. Mountain lions? Who needs 'em - they're getting uppity. Coyotes too. Time for a general policy - kill every carnivore in the national forests and on BLM land.
Let's also install elevators and gondolas to help the more timid among us explore and enjoy the wild areas.

Well if were going to start wiping shit out porcupines are on my kill every time run over with the pick up exterminate with extreme prejudice list.

 

[OSU]

Interesting rebuttal. If you can equate our houses in a town or city with national forests and wilderness areas covering hundreds of square miles and inhabited by natural predators, you would successfully prosecute your case.

What if my house is adjacent to the national forest? AND I recognize the intrinsic value of mosquitos?

 

[OSU]

I think we're seeing a rather disproportional number of attacks here in Idaho because this apex predator has lost their fear of us. We've got plenty of other predators more than capable of handing us our lunch, but they don't. In over fifty years living and hunting here, I cannot recall a single lion attack (other than a pet that was let loose to get pregnant near Idaho City - a story in itself).

First killing one or two grizzlies a year is not going to put any population level fear of humans into them. They are not wired like that and its not enough learning interactions. Second fish and game have euthanized like 20 lions in recent years because they were hanging out in town and or near schools and eating peoples pets.

 

[Rotnguns]

What if my house is adjacent to the national forest? AND I recognize the intrinsic value of mosquitos?

Go on....?

 

[Rotnguns]

First killing one or two grizzlies a year is not going to put any population level fear of humans into them. They are not wired like that and its not enough learning interactions. Second fish and game have euthanized like 20 lions in recent years because they were hanging out in town and or near schools and eating peoples pets.

Plenty of people hunt lions in Idaho - we can run them with dogs, unlike many states. We lose pets and domestic livestock and poultry to coyotes, raccoons, and lots of other critters. Heck, when I raised chickens on my small farm in Canyon County years ago, I lost more of them to owls than anything else. I could find only one incident where a truly wild lion attacked a person in Idaho (Blackfoot, about eight years ago). I leave out the infamous Idaho City decades ago - that was a declawed pet female mountain lion who was released by his owner to get pregnant. Using your logic, should we eradicate every predator from the state?

 

[Rotnguns]

So was I.

Maybe I read your original comment wrong, but if you think you're going to square up with a wolf unarmed and win on points, then you need to see one up close. They are not a large version of Lassie. A single wild wolf, if it ever wanted to, would tear off your head.

 

[Wrench]

Plenty of people hunt lions in Idaho - we can run them with dogs, unlike many states. We lose pets and domestic livestock and poultry to coyotes, raccoons, and lots of other critters. Heck, when I raised chickens on my small farm in Canyon County years ago, I lost more of them to owls than anything else. I could find only one incident where a truly wild lion attacked a person in Idaho (Blackfoot, about eight years ago). I leave out the infamous Idaho City decades ago - that was a declawed pet female mountain lion who was released by his owner to get pregnant. Using your logic, should we eradicate every predator from the state?

Use your own logic to answer the question.

You state that hound hunting occurs on olins and that they are doing fine. Lions are also not pack animals and therefore only good stalkers and ambushers as opposed to wolves who can also run pack drives.

Hunting the alpha isn't going to end them. They have been hunted by plane in Alaska and yet they still thrive. What hunting does is introduce a fear of humans. That's what keeps conflict down. Black bears, cats, yotes....they all run from humans to stay alive. We just need the grizzly and wolf to do the same.

 

[Rotnguns]

Use your own logic to answer the question.

You state that hound hunting occurs on olins and that they are doing fine. Lions are also not pack animals and therefore only good stalkers and ambushers as opposed to wolves who can also run pack drives.

Hunting the alpha isn't going to end them. They have been hunted by plane in Alaska and yet they still thrive. What hunting does is introduce a fear of humans. That's what keeps conflict down. Black bears, cats, yotes....they all run from humans to stay alive. We just need the grizzly and wolf to do the same.

My point all along. We need to have a season on grizzlies - that's been my point of view when I started this thread. The issue is that we won't get a season on them in the lower 48 until we can assure the over-protectionists that grizzlies have established a sustainable population.

 

[LostArra]

we won't get a season on them in the lower 48 until we can assure the over-protectionists that grizzlies have established a sustainable population.

You're assuming the over-protectionists are adults capable of rational thought.

There will never be a state managed grizzly hunt in the lower 48

 

[Pacific_Fork]

I don’t know if this point has been hammered out in this thread yet but more G bears equals less trapping and hound hunting for B bears, cats, and wolves. We don’t need more of any apex predator, especially one that will likely never see visible hunting opportunities.

 

[Customweld]

I don’t know if this point has been hammered out in this thread yet but more G bears equals less trapping and hound hunting for B bears, cats, and wolves. We don’t need more of any apex predator, especially one that will likely never see visible hunting opportunities.

Very good point.

 

[rogerdoger]

I don’t know if this point has been hammered out in this thread yet but more G bears equals less trapping and hound hunting for B bears, cats, and wolves. We don’t need more of any apex predator, especially one that will likely never see visible hunting opportunities.

This is a valid point, in Montana they are trying to limit trapping only to the months grizz are in hibernation.

I live 20 miles from glacier and the grizzlies are everywhere. They have been known to follow the shots fired in hopes to find the guy pile. If they can learn to come to a gun shot they can learn to run. It would take time however.

Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of the grizz but as long as they are fully protected they can overtake area. This endangered listing also gives way for all the groups to file lawsuits against the national forest for any kind of land management, leading to nothing being done, overgrown forest with no large amount of game animals except wolves and grizzlies.

My point, after rambling, I feel we could have a healthy population of all the animals including grizzlies in a lot of areas, but it should start at land management to produce healthy forest that support deer, elk, etc. then the land would be more sustainable to introduce griz.