Charging bear/timed shooting drill

[Formidilosus]

AR15 with Aimpoint:

Average 1st shot- 0.64 seconds
Average split between shots= 0.16 seconds
Average total time- 0.81 seconds







Bolt action 308 with Aimpoint:

Average 1st shot- 0.82 seconds
Average split- 1.14 seconds
Average total time- 1.96 seconds




AR15 all hits, no malfunctions. Bolt action all hits, 1x light strike with a reshoot, and 1x malfunction (failure to feed), and 1x potential slam fire.


Average time for 2 hits with the 308 bolt action, is between 8-10 hits with the AR.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Slam fire with the bolt action? As long as it was a hit...

 

[BLJ]

@Formidilosus. What bolt gun with the slam fire?

 

[Snowhunter11]

His target says a UM Bat machine action .308..

 

[Formidilosus]

Slam fire with the bolt action? As long as it was a hit...

Ha. 0.69 sec split.

@Formidilosus. What bolt gun with the slam fire?

A custom R700 pattern with Bix n Andy Tacsport trigger. I cannot with 100%, absolute certainty say that a knuckle didn’t touch the trigger somehow when closing the bolt. But I don’t see how. If, it was indeed a fire on close/slam fire, it is a trigger issue- as they all are.

 

[BLJ]

Ha. 0.69 sec split.




A custom R700 pattern with Bix n Andy Tacsport trigger. I cannot with 100%, absolute certainty say that a knuckle didn’t touch the trigger somehow when closing the bolt. But I don’t see how. If, it was indeed a fire on close/slam fire, it is a trigger issue- as they all are.

Honestly wouldn’t rule out dragging a knuckle across the trigger.
I had an AD at a match with my CZ 457 and that’s what happened to me.
Slammed the bolt shut and the middle knuckle on my middle finger caught enough of the trigger to make the rifle fire.
Almost seemed like a slam fire, but I realized exactly what happened as soon as it did.
Not my finest moment, but definitely something to address and keep in mind when moving fast.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Luke S]

I tried it this afternoon but had some limitations. No shot timer so my son video taped me. I'll put it in the video editor on my computer and get a reasonable measurement of my speed later. I also had limited practice ammo on hand so only 2 rounds with each rifle. Maybe this weekend I'll have a chance for the full drill.

AR 6.5 Grendal was clearly way faster then my beloved 308 even using the middle finger to pull the trigger.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

I thought you had a single action 6 shooter?
View attachment 664281

Hhmmm I guess you could have an AR.
View attachment 664283

I am A modern Yukon Cornelius.

 

[WeiserBucks]

@Formidilosus care to respond to post #27?

 

[wind gypsy]

Hmmm.........."foreshadowing?"

Randy

I was picturing the rokslide brown bear hunt vid right away with @PNWGATOR and @Formidilosus stomping around with ARs and the head explosions for some people at the idea of lower 48ers hunting browns with 556.

 

[PNWGATOR]

I was picturing the rokslide brown bear hunt vid right away with @PNWGATOR and @Formidilosus stomping around with ARs and the head explosions for some people at the idea of lower 48ers hunting browns with 556.

Really?!

Too funny!

I look for work in AK daily simply to make a dream a reality. It’ll happen.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus care to respond to post #27?

Not particularly as I should not have engaged in the first place. This is a drill thread, not a thread for caliber versus magical beasts. There’s already a thread for that.

However-

What is your experience with aggressive animals that get shot in the face or anywhere else? Brown bears specifically. Do you guide brown bear hunting? Are you a resident of a state that has brown bears and allows hunting? Do you go on guided brown bear hunts as a customer? Have you stopped a charging brown bear at 7 yards with an M4 or a handgun?

Let’s see if I get them in order- More than some, some, no, yes, no, no.

 

[BLJ]

To the guys with 6x on the low end. Do you think that was a significant disadvantage for target acquisition govern the 7 yard distance?

 

[ARK_Ginger]

To the guys with 6x on the low end. Do you think that was a significant disadvantage for target acquisition govern the 7 yard distance?

Depends, the SWFA fixed 6x has a generous FOV and eye box from my perspective. It felt less difficult than say the SWFA 1-6 on 6x, but that could be me.

A red dot is clearly the winner if you were specifically setting up a rifle to do this. On an AR15 I might add.

 

[Tod osier]

Can someone tell me the likely real world difference in: 1) hits on a target like this and 2) speed - comparing the aimpoint vs some sort of irons (broadly described).

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Can someone tell me the likely real world difference in: 1) hits on a target like this and 2) speed - comparing the aimpoint vs some sort of irons (broadly described).

Amateur shot at your question. The red dot will be faster than irons, and a lesser recoiling cartridge will be faster than a heavier one.

Red dots are faster because there are less planes of sight (not sure if that's the correct verbiage). For example standard v notch sights have three planes you're lining up rear, front, and target. Your eyes can only really focus on one. For a red dot it's just the dot and target. With the red dot you can just superimpose the red blob on top of the target vs focusing on front sight while lining up rear and putting on target.

All that said, I'll take a 223 with irons over a 308 with a red dot, simply because the additional recoil takes you off target and costs you time.

 

[Ozarkansas]

One thing I want to try when I get the chance (it won’t be anytime soon) is comparing my skinner sighted 45/70 lever gun to bolt actions, as well as my cock-on-closing m/94 mauser.

I also think if you just want the most skull-penetrating hits possible on target in the shortest time, a semi-auto shotgun with large TSS (BB or above) would be impossible to beat. My SA-20 with an IM choke can put 49 pellets per shot downrange, and at 7 yards 20 or so will be in that 8” circle. Each pellet has enough energy to pass through pigs, shoulders and all, even out to 25 yards. With a 12 gauge you could shoot T shot or larger and probably get the same pellet count

 

[Ozarkansas]

Just did a very bootleg version of this drill with my newly chopped/threaded and suppressed, un-sighted in .243. Did 4 rounds of 2 shots using my voice memo app to track a beep and then the two shots. Then I did two shots, not for time, with a sound level meter to test the decibel level of my new harvester Evo (which was not part of this test but came out to around 135 dB peak at the muzzle)

Below are the results, first number is time from beep to first shot, second number is time from beep to second shot, so consider it the “total time”:

Round 1: 0.88-1.92

Round 2: .77-2.48

Round 3: .97-2.46

Round 4: .72-2.17

Average time to first shot: .835 seconds
Average total time: 2.257 seconds
Average time between shots: 1.423 seconds

Savage 110 with 18” barrel, timney trigger, and leupold vx 3 3.5-10x40

 

[TaperPin]

Can someone tell me the likely real world difference in: 1) hits on a target like this and 2) speed - comparing the aimpoint vs some sort of irons (broadly described).

At the rifle range a red dot will be faster, but just a little. In coastal areas water on the red dot would not be good, so scope caps would slow things down.

When we practiced this a regularly with iron sights and began to feel proficient, it was very similar to shooting a shotgun - as the rifle comes up the rear ghost ring automatically centers the eye and the gun goes off as soon as the front bead intersects just shy of the center of the target.

We’re conditioned to take a shot, bring the rifle off the shoulder to chamber the next round, reshoulder and shoot - we laughed at each other because it was not automatic to chamber a new round rapidly with the rifle shouldered - just like teaching a kid to set the hook flyfishing before the trout spits out the fly. Lol

 

[eamyrick]

@Formidilosus how much faster do you think you could run a Blaser straight pull vs standard bolt action?