What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[willfrye027]

I find it hard to believe that the decline in quality mule deer bucks is due to LR hunting. IMO it's due to elk population expansion/habitat loss, lack of predator control, and extended drought conditions.

In the gunnison basin the main change between now and the heyday 2000s is lots of tags and late season dates. Rutting bucks in the sage with roads everywhere and quite a few tags is the issue here. The populations are doing great, there’s just not a whole lot of big deer.

Your statement I believe is more applicable to the west in general but in the basin deer numbers are good

 

[Don Fischer]

I strongly suspect that if 4 point and better bucks had much higher price tags and areas to hunt it would help a great deal. I also think Long Range Hunting is a problem. I doubt most people willing to shoot long range could qualify to do so before going hunting. Some how doubt even the ones bragging about it so much could qualify either. And I'd pretty much bet that if an animal get away they really don't know if it was wounded or simply missed. And how many dead animals are left to rot because where the deer was standing at 600+ yds looks a lot different when you get out there. I have a 300yd limit on shooting game animals and have only ever took it one time and then just to say I did it; sorry reason! Majority of deer I kill are well under 250 yds. I only shoot deer to fill the freezer.

 

[IDVortex]

I'm curious on the percentage of long range hunting vs the redneck who sees a deer and just starts blasting. I also have a hard time believing this with statistics showing a huge majority of kills is under 200yrds.

 

[wind gypsy]

Probably most of us don't really know because we haven't had the time or ability or training to examine the data personally. Heck, I don't know. But I do know that Brandon Diamond identified it as an issue. That plus his somewhat begrudging or reluctant behavior suggests even more strongly that he believes it is a material contributor. Again, I don't know. To me, it does seem sensible that the advent of tools enabling long range killing (or wounding) would contribute to more pressure on the biggest bucks. But, for the third time, I really don't know. But maybe the Regional Biologist does...

In the gunnison basin the main change between now and the heyday 2000s is lots of tags and late season dates. Rutting bucks in the sage with roads everywhere and quite a few tags is the issue here. The populations are doing great, there’s just not a whole lot of big deer.

Your statement I believe is more applicable to the west in general but in the basin deer numbers are good

What Brandon had to say on the Rokcast made a lot of sense to me. When a special buck exists, someone knows about it, names it, has it on a hitlist usually prior to it even reaching it's full peak potential. Technology, info, and weapon systems all contribute to that buck being found and killed more than was likely in prior generations. Probably a little different in areas where there is tons of timber and difficult access but in places where they are very visible and accessible with ample tags (especially late tags) - I've gotta believe bucks are going to get killed when they start to express their potential.

IIRC, Brandon basically said with how efficient hunters have gotten at finding/killing the best bucks, its near impossible to manage for mature bucks in a place like the gunnison with such good access without cutting tags #s below what near anyone would want but he acknowledges earlier season dates would help some survive. Seems an opportunity was missed at getting seasons moved earlier.

 

[littlebigtine]

Seems an opportunity was missed at getting seasons moved earlier.

Whoopsie

 

[HandgunHTR]

I strongly suspect that if 4 point and better bucks had much higher price tags and areas to hunt it would help a great deal. I also think Long Range Hunting is a problem. I doubt most people willing to shoot long range could qualify to do so before going hunting. Some how doubt even the ones bragging about it so much could qualify either. And I'd pretty much bet that if an animal get away they really don't know if it was wounded or simply missed. And how many dead animals are left to rot because where the deer was standing at 600+ yds looks a lot different when you get out there. I have a 300yd limit on shooting game animals and have only ever took it one time and then just to say I did it; sorry reason! Majority of deer I kill are well under 250 yds. I only shoot deer to fill the freezer.

I love how you assume that because you can't do it, other people can't and therefore it shouldn't be allowed.

I know a ton of hunters who shoot less than 10% of the rounds I do each year and you don't see me stating that they shouldn't be allowed to hunt.

As for your assumption that a deer/elk/whatever is hit and assumed missed, this is another reason why a few of us are pretty big advocates of suppressors and smaller cartridges. If you can see and/or hear your impact, there is no guessing. You know if you hit or not.

 

[Don Fischer]

I love how you assume that because you can't do it, other people can't and therefore it shouldn't be allowed.

I know a ton of hunters who shoot less than 10% of the rounds I do each year and you don't see me stating that they shouldn't be allowed to hunt.

As for your assumption that a deer/elk/whatever is hit and assumed missed, this is another reason why a few of us are pretty big advocates of suppressors and smaller cartridges. If you can see and/or hear your impact, there is no guessing. You know if you hit or not.

Yea right. Suppressor lets you hear a hit at 800 yds!

 

[wind gypsy]

Pardon our temporary stray to a Mule Deer management conversation, we've migrated back to a cartridge size and what suppressors allow you to hear conversation.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Yea right. Suppressor lets you hear a hit at 800 yds!

Let me ask, although I already know the answer. What personal experience do you have that leads you to believe you can't?

 

[rileybassman]

Yea right. Suppressor lets you hear a hit at 800 yds!

Absolutely can. Been behind the rifle or next to the shooter for animals shot at 730, 750, and 920 and heard impacts clearly on all 3.

Edit to add, I'd say it's actually easier at that range then 1-200 yards as the shot itself has become silent by the time the impact sound makes it back to the shooter/spotter.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

 

[Sizzler]

Am I the only one that never has the perfect shot? I do a lot of still hunting in tall grass and swamps. Have tried the 6mms but without snow whitetail are extremely hard to find. Love the 35 cals or leverguns for this job. I think the trend is so called experts on youtube are brainwashing everyone into this fad of small caliber and long range shots. If that tickles your fancy have at it. I like aiming for my exit from almost any angle.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Am I the only one that never has the perfect shot?

Coincidentally, I think you're the first person to ever bring up Margin For Error™® when discussing this. Now we all have something to ruminate on.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Heck yes, no replacement for displacement for exit from many angles with the right bullet. Mid-bore fan here...

Shooting groups at the range in statistically relevant numbers of shots is no doubt it's something to post about. One shot in the field has been a pretty good prescription for success, ime. Who can't focus on the trigger break and make a good shot with damn near any rifle for one shot if it's a shot that should be taken.

 

[CTXhunter]

Am I the only one that never has the perfect shot? I do a lot of still hunting in tall grass and swamps. Have tried the 6mms but without snow whitetail are extremely hard to find. Love the 35 cals or leverguns for this job. I think the trend is so called experts on youtube are brainwashing everyone into this fad of small caliber and long range shots. If that tickles your fancy have at it. I like aiming for my exit from almost any angle.

Welcome to the forum. Just a few more post and you can get into the classifieds.

You shot a whitetail in the heart and lungs with 6mm and didn’t find it?

Can you explain how the slower and larger diameter bullets give you more margin for error or you just assume because “bigger is better?” Sounds like you’re the one being influenced by Ron Spoomer and the rest of the wallop group. Keep shooting with authority, partner.

“Biggest” gun I’ve shot in 3 years is a 6 ARC and I’ve killed a number, all with golf ball or larger exit wounds. Blood trails that Stevie wonder could follow but haven’t needed them because I watched them go down.

But if you need an extra millimeter or so on your bullet diameter to help you sleep at night, by all means. I’ll keep letting my wife and kids drop Deer with these “undersized” cartridges.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Looks like the debate is alive and well. I don't know how else he can say a smaller diameter 6mm didn't do what he wanted.

I shoot with larger calibers and take sarcasm and direct innuendo as a compliment.

You jest at the difference in "an extra millimeter or so". The difference between a 35 caliber and a 6 mm, (.358" vs .243") in expanded diameter is 47% in favor of a .358 vs 6mm. The momentum of a .358 in a bullet of similar sectional density to a 6mm (.243) is vastly greater and the comparison on a hard quartering shot in my experience, there is no comparison.


Unless he's a bad shot with a 6 mm and a crack shot with a 35, he's basing it on experience of one doing a better job than the other for the performance he prefers. Personally I don't need to try a 6 mm on a hard quartering shot on an elk, and I don't need 10 shot or more statistically relevant groups to know what's worked for 30 years out to 350 to 400 yards on big game with a mid bore on deer and Elk sized game.

Congrats to your daughter and wife, what cartridge/caliber do you choose?

 

[Sizzler]

Welcome to the forum. Just a few more post and you can get into the classifieds.

You shot a whitetail in the heart and lungs with 6mm and didn’t find it?

Can you explain how the slower and larger diameter bullets give you more margin for error or you just assume because “bigger is better?” Sounds like you’re the one being influenced by Ron Spoomer and the rest of the wallop group. Keep shooting with authority, partner.

“Biggest” gun I’ve shot in 3 years is a 6 ARC and I’ve killed a number, all with golf ball or larger exit wounds. Blood trails that Stevie wonder could follow but haven’t needed them because I watched them go down.

But if you need an extra millimeter or so on your bullet diameter to help you sleep at night, by all means. I’ll keep letting my wife and kids drop Deer with these “undersized” cartridges.

View attachment 952694

My experience has been poor blood trails and lack of pass thru. I have found the deer but the trailing has been extremely difficult. Especially in grass. I've used 80 gr ttsx and 100 Hornady in my 243. Over the hundreds of deer I have shot i appreciate what the bigger holes do. If you dont want to deal with the added recoil and cost that's up to you. No hair off my ass either way. There are several ways to skin a cat.

 

[Sizzler]

Looks like the debate is alive and well. I don't know how else he can say a smaller diameter 6mm didn't do what he wanted.

Unless he's a bad shot with a 6 mm and a crack shot with a 35, he's basing it on experience of one doing a better job than the other for the performance he prefers. Personally I don't need to try a 6 mm on a hard quartering shot on an elk, and I don't need 10 shot or more statistically relevant groups to know what's worked for 30 years out to 350 to 400 yards on big game with a mid bore on deer and Elk sized

Looks like the debate is alive and well. I don't know how else he can say a smaller diameter 6mm didn't do what he wanted.

Unless he's a bad shot with a 6 mm and a crack shot with a 35, he's basing it on experience of one doing a better job than the other for the performance he prefers. Personally I don't need to try a 6 mm on a hard quartering shot on an elk, and I don't need 10 shot or more statistically relevant groups to know what's worked for 30 years out to 350 to 400 yards on big game with a mid bore on deer and Elk sized game.

Congrats to your daughter and wife, by chance what cartridge/caliber do you shoot?

Welcome to the forum. Just a few more post and you can get into the classifieds.

You shot a whitetail in the heart and lungs with 6mm and didn’t find it?

Can you explain how the slower and larger diameter bullets give you more margin for error or you just assume because “bigger is better?” Sounds like you’re the one being influenced by Ron Spoomer and the rest of the wallop group. Keep shooting with authority, partner.

“Biggest” gun I’ve shot in 3 years is a 6 ARC and I’ve killed a number, all with golf ball or larger exit wounds. Blood trails that Stevie wonder could follow but haven’t needed them because I watched them go down.

But if you need an extra millimeter or so on your bullet diameter to help you sleep at night, by all means. I’ll keep letting my wife and kids drop Deer with these “undersized” cartridges.

View attachment 952694

These are the trails from 2 i shot with a 450 marlin full tilt on a drive at about 15 yards. They made it about 50 yards. Those are decent exits on those deer. What cal and bullet. I shoot a pile moving at close range. Quick handling rifles are king.

 

[omicron1792]

Looks like the debate is alive and well. I don't know how else he can say a smaller diameter 6mm didn't do what he wanted.

I shoot with larger calibers and take sarcasm and direct innuendo as a compliment.

You jest at the difference in "an extra millimeter or so". The difference between a 35 caliber and a 6 mm, (.358" vs .243") is 64.2% difference in diameter in favor of the .358. That's an expanded diameter. Wait for it, I'll do the calculation on expanded diameter of like bullets...


Unless he's a bad shot with a 6 mm and a crack shot with a 35, he's basing it on experience of one doing a better job than the other for the performance he prefers. Personally I don't need to try a 6 mm on a hard quartering shot on an elk, and I don't need 10 shot or more statistically relevant groups to know what's worked for 30 years out to 350 to 400 yards on big game with a mid bore on deer and Elk sized game.

Congrats to your daughter and wife, what cartridge/caliber do you choose?

2 dollars compared to 1 is a 100% difference. But it still won’t buy you a cheeseburger.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Point being? We're talking about quartering shots of heavier bullets in larger calibers versus smaller calibers and lighter bullets.

$2 won't buy you a hamburger anymore than one can say a lighter bullet that's of similar construction will do the same thing as heavier bullet of the same construction from hard angles all else equal.

 

[omicron1792]

Point being? We're talking about quartering shots of heavier bullets in larger calibers versus smaller calibers and lighter bullets.

$2 won't buy you a hamburger anymore than one can say a lighter bullet that's of similar construction will do the same thing as heavier bullet of the same construction from hard angles all else equal.

62% increase in something small is still small.

It’s all in what the bullet does on impact that makes the difference.