What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Bugger]

While I would say you are right 99.9% of the time. There are bullets that dont give reliable expansion and sometimes expand very little and / or very late or just completely act like FMJ. I cant remember which ones but I know I have asked about a bunch of bullets and been told that on some of them. Please forgive me I save memory space for the ones that DO work and why / how they work.

Failsafes and original Barnes were pretty notorious for that. Velocity was blamed, but a lower velocity wouldn’t have magically reversed the failure rate of a bad bullet design. Who knows, maybe a bunch of them did expand and people were just surprised to see how far an animal could run with a small hole in the lungs.

 

[wyosam]

Yes, that 0.061” is the difference that makes the deer bleed while the other is small enough that the skin simply plugs up and doesn’t allow the blood out.

Or it’s more likely the golfball to baseball sized exit hole from the larger bullets that leaves the larger blood trail makes tracking easier vs a single .22 cal hole on one side.

I also have the issues with fragmenting monos puncturing the heart leaving poor blood trails even with a solid double lung shot. If the blood can’t pump it simply drains into the chest cavity and if the entrance is high then the animal typically dies before leaving any kind of blood trail.

I missed by .0306 once. Never again. Now I shoot .338, which gives me .057” of breathing room. That allows me to get pretty lazy on my wind calls.


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[atmat]

Yes, that 0.061” is the difference that makes the deer bleed while the other is small enough that the skin simply plugs up and doesn’t allow the blood out.

Or it’s more likely the golfball to baseball sized exit hole from the larger bullets that leaves the larger blood trail makes tracking easier vs a single .22 cal hole on one side.

I also have the issues with fragmenting monos puncturing the heart leaving poor blood trails even with a solid double lung shot. If the blood can’t pump it simply drains into the chest cavity and if the entrance is high then the animal typically dies before leaving any kind of blood trail.

Bruh you don’t know what you’re talking about lol

 

[CMP70306]

Bruh you don’t know what you’re talking about lol

Actually I do, and you will see it if you read my previous posts. Long story short a guy we hunt with shoots a 22-250 with 52gr Hollow points, it kills deer but has no exit and leaves no blood to follow. This can make them difficult to locate especially on drives where the deer are far less likely to drop on the initial shot. That means if it gets out of sight in the woods we have no good way to track it and have lost several deer because of it.

The rest of us hunt with larger cartridges, .25-06, 6.5 PRC, .270, .30-06 and .300 Win Mag among others. These cartridges do better for driving because even with poor shot angles they still exit, usually with a much larger hole, leaving a much better blood trail to follow.

With fragmenting monos I’ve had several deer that when tracking I thought I made a poor shot due to little to no blood only to find that it was a solid double lung shot but one of the petals pierced the heart leading to a caliber size entry and exit with a chest cavity completely filled with blood. The buck in one of my posts was the perfect example, tons of damage but almost no blood on the ground, I simply walked out the ridge where he ran and found him as I couldn’t locate any blood to track.

I missed by .0306 once. Never again. Now I shoot .338, which gives me .057” of breathing room. That allows me to get pretty lazy on my wind calls.


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For the record the first part is a joke. The diameter is much less relevant than the weight and construction, I’d have the same complaints if he was getting the same results with a 110gr V-Max out of a .300 Win Mag.

If he was shooting heavy for caliber bullets like the vaunted 77gr TMK or he never shot on drives then it would be less of an issue. But we kill a lot of deer on drives and he’s shooting a 14 twist so it is what it is.

Based on my experience it wouldn’t be my first choice of cartridge and bullet, not when so many better options exist.

 

[tony]

I have not read the entire thread or the .223 thread all the way as well.
.223 and the 6mm Creedmoor are mentioned as effective on large game.

What about the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel?

 

[Alex Genereux]

I have not read the entire thread or the .223 thread all the way as well.
.223 and the 6mm Creedmoor are mentioned as effective on large game.

What about the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel?

The cartridge is irrelevant it’s about a type of bullet and the speed it is going at whatever range you are wanting to shoot.

 

[The Guide]

Actually I do, and you will see it if you read my previous posts. Long story short a guy we hunt with shoots a 22-250 with 52gr Hollow points, it kills deer but has no exit and leaves no blood to follow. This can make them difficult to locate especially on drives where the deer are far less likely to drop on the initial shot. That means if it gets out of sight in the woods we have no good way to track it and have lost several deer because of it.

The rest of us hunt with larger cartridges, .25-06, 6.5 PRC, .270, .30-06 and .300 Win Mag among others. These cartridges do better for driving because even with poor shot angles they still exit, usually with a much larger hole, leaving a much better blood trail to follow.

With fragmenting monos I’ve had several deer that when tracking I thought I made a poor shot due to little to no blood only to find that it was a solid double lung shot but one of the petals pierced the heart leading to a caliber size entry and exit with a chest cavity completely filled with blood. The buck in one of my posts was the perfect example, tons of damage but almost no blood on the ground, I simply walked out the ridge where he ran and found him as I couldn’t locate any blood to track.




For the record the first part is a joke. The diameter is much less relevant than the weight and construction, I’d have the same complaints if he was getting the same results with a 110gr V-Max out of a .300 Win Mag.

If he was shooting heavy for caliber bullets like the vaunted 77gr TMK or he never shot on drives then it would be less of an issue. But we kill a lot of deer on drives and he’s shooting a 14 twist so it is what it is.

Based on my experience it wouldn’t be my first choice of cartridge and bullet, not when so many better options exist.

That 60g TMK might be the jam for his slow twist 22-250. Not sure if he handloads of would be willing to change.

Jay

 

[The Guide]

I have not read the entire thread or the .223 thread all the way as well.
.223 and the 6mm Creedmoor are mentioned as effective on large game.

What about the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel?

For me with the bullets I've optimized for each of those calibers I have effective velocity for bullet upset and fragmentation of 1800 fps to the following distances.

223 Sierra 77tmk 1800 fps @ 480 yards
6 ARC Hornady 103 ELDX 1800 fps @ 510 yards
6.5 G Hornady 123 ELDM 1800 fps @ 450 yards
6 Creedmoor 105 Berger 1800 fps @ 720 yards

I've listed them on my opinion of the perceived recoil of the round. The first 3 rifles are Howa Mini Actions and the 4th is a Ruger American Predator. These are sub $600 rifles that could kill any North American big game animal. Any of those rounds could be optimized for further than most people can accurately shoot or distances further than they have opportunities to shoot to. Pretty good time to be a shooter and hunter with the advances in bullets and powders in the last 30 years.

Jay

 

[tony]

The cartridge is irrelevant it’s about a type of bullet and the speed it is going at whatever range you are wanting to shoot.

Thanks
That's what I was meaning to say

 

[Dave0317]

@CMP70306
A big factor in weight of bullet vs rifling twist is bullet length. So if you are trying to find a heavier bullet that will stabilize well in a slow twist, look for shorter designs. A flat base instead of a boat tail and a rounder soft point instead of a long narrow ELD style tip.

BC won’t be good, but inside of 300 yards, I bet you won’t see a difference.

Not sure how heavy this could get your buddy, but it might be worth loading up a few rounds to try. Maybe the Speer Hot Cor or similar.

 

[CMP70306]

That 60g TMK might be the jam for his slow twist 22-250. Not sure if he handloads of would be willing to change.

Jay

@CMP70306
A big factor in weight of bullet vs rifling twist is bullet length. So if you are trying to find a heavier bullet that will stabilize well in a slow twist, look for shorter designs. A flat base instead of a boat tail and a rounder soft point instead of a long narrow ELD style tip.

BC won’t be good, but inside of 300 yards, I bet you won’t see a difference.

Not sure how heavy this could get your buddy, but it might be worth loading up a few rounds to try. Maybe the Speer Hot Cor or similar.

I was going to do the load work up for his rifle but I only see him during hunting season and over one summer he had a guy load a couple hundred of them for him. He doesn’t practice by shooting paper, he just shoots pests throughout the year to confirm his zero or an occasional shot on a 350 yard gong. With how little he shoots they will probably last him the rest of his life.

 

[nagibson1]

I am definitely a believer that non-magnums are very sufficient at real life ranges. Also, Europeans have been using smaller calibers for a long time- 6.5 Swedes have killed o so many mooses. However, I tend to think our grandfather's had it right minus new bullet construction. The 25-30 caliber range is really good, and the 30-06 loaded moderately can get down to 16lbs of recoil. So the .270-7mm-30-06/308 are very ideal calibers for a one rifle hunter- which should be the goal for most.
Given new bullet construction, I think you can drop that a caliber. The 7mm will do what the 30 did. Thus, I tend to think that .25/6.5-30 cal is still a sweet spot. If I chose a rifle today it would be a .280ai.
HOWEVER, I was just hunting with one of the best western hunters I've ever heard of, and he is 100% a .243 guy. He also shot his 355 bull 4 times this year for it to expire, and he is a good shot.
My hunting partner this year shot his bull at 387 with his creedmore- about 140gr elds- and he spined it. The bullet didn't clear the spine, and there was no exit wound. The bullet retained about 60% of it's weight. He's also a very good shot- has taken coues deer @ 500+.
I have also shot whitetails with premium bullets in .243 and just not gotten exit wounds if the shot wasn't pure broadside. I just don't trust sub .25, under 120gr bullets to handle whatever shot angle I put them up to.
Thus, I'm a moderate. I want the largest caliber that truly has no effect on my accuracy- minus denial. for me that's about 17lbs if I shoot a lot in a 7.5lb gun with a good recoil pad. So I still hunt a 30-06 shooting 150-165's at 2800ish speeds. That puts recoil right around 19 with the 165's and right at 16.5 with the 150's. I'd be glad to move down to 7mm if it cost nothing, in order to get the higher SD (.280ai or 7mm-08). Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards. A moderate load in 270 is very shootable for teenage kids, and the bullet and powder cost is not really different. So I'm not interested in seeing how small I can go. 6.5 is a temptation, but not smaller than that for me.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards.

How much energy does that take?

 

[z987k]

How much energy does that take?

Depends if you like them medium or medium rare.

 

[Don Fischer]

I am definitely a believer that non-magnums are very sufficient at real life ranges. Also, Europeans have been using smaller calibers for a long time- 6.5 Swedes have killed o so many mooses. However, I tend to think our grandfather's had it right minus new bullet construction. The 25-30 caliber range is really good, and the 30-06 loaded moderately can get down to 16lbs of recoil. So the .270-7mm-30-06/308 are very ideal calibers for a one rifle hunter- which should be the goal for most.
Given new bullet construction, I think you can drop that a caliber. The 7mm will do what the 30 did. Thus, I tend to think that .25/6.5-30 cal is still a sweet spot. If I chose a rifle today it would be a .280ai.
HOWEVER, I was just hunting with one of the best western hunters I've ever heard of, and he is 100% a .243 guy. He also shot his 355 bull 4 times this year for it to expire, and he is a good shot.
My hunting partner this year shot his bull at 387 with his creedmore- about 140gr elds- and he spined it. The bullet didn't clear the spine, and there was no exit wound. The bullet retained about 60% of it's weight. He's also a very good shot- has taken coues deer @ 500+.
I have also shot whitetails with premium bullets in .243 and just not gotten exit wounds if the shot wasn't pure broadside. I just don't trust sub .25, under 120gr bullets to handle whatever shot angle I put them up to.
Thus, I'm a moderate. I want the largest caliber that truly has no effect on my accuracy- minus denial. for me that's about 17lbs if I shoot a lot in a 7.5lb gun with a good recoil pad. So I still hunt a 30-06 shooting 150-165's at 2800ish speeds. That puts recoil right around 19 with the 165's and right at 16.5 with the 150's. I'd be glad to move down to 7mm if it cost nothing, in order to get the higher SD (.280ai or 7mm-08). Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards. A moderate load in 270 is very shootable for teenage kids, and the bullet and powder cost is not really different. So I'm not interested in seeing how small I can go. 6.5 is a temptation, but not smaller than that for me.

Great post. Wish I had made it.

 

[AkRyan]

I am definitely a believer that non-magnums are very sufficient at real life ranges. Also, Europeans have been using smaller calibers for a long time- 6.5 Swedes have killed o so many mooses. However, I tend to think our grandfather's had it right minus new bullet construction. The 25-30 caliber range is really good, and the 30-06 loaded moderately can get down to 16lbs of recoil. So the .270-7mm-30-06/308 are very ideal calibers for a one rifle hunter- which should be the goal for most.
Given new bullet construction, I think you can drop that a caliber. The 7mm will do what the 30 did. Thus, I tend to think that .25/6.5-30 cal is still a sweet spot. If I chose a rifle today it would be a .280ai.
HOWEVER, I was just hunting with one of the best western hunters I've ever heard of, and he is 100% a .243 guy. He also shot his 355 bull 4 times this year for it to expire, and he is a good shot.
My hunting partner this year shot his bull at 387 with his creedmore- about 140gr elds- and he spined it. The bullet didn't clear the spine, and there was no exit wound. The bullet retained about 60% of it's weight. He's also a very good shot- has taken coues deer @ 500+.
I have also shot whitetails with premium bullets in .243 and just not gotten exit wounds if the shot wasn't pure broadside. I just don't trust sub .25, under 120gr bullets to handle whatever shot angle I put them up to.
Thus, I'm a moderate. I want the largest caliber that truly has no effect on my accuracy- minus denial. for me that's about 17lbs if I shoot a lot in a 7.5lb gun with a good recoil pad. So I still hunt a 30-06 shooting 150-165's at 2800ish speeds. That puts recoil right around 19 with the 165's and right at 16.5 with the 150's. I'd be glad to move down to 7mm if it cost nothing, in order to get the higher SD (.280ai or 7mm-08). Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards. A moderate load in 270 is very shootable for teenage kids, and the bullet and powder cost is not really different. So I'm not interested in seeing how small I can go. 6.5 is a temptation, but not smaller than that for me.

Great post! If every shot was broad side a .223 would work perfectly 100% of the time.
I'm not sure how any human can argue any point you made in this post.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Great post! If every shot was broad side a .223 would work perfectly 100% of the time.
I'm not sure how any human can argue any point you made in this post.

Out of curiosity, what specific shot would you NOT take with a 77tmk 223, but WOULD take with a 130 Corelokt 270?

 

[AkRyan]

Out of curiosity, what specific shot would you NOT take with a 77tmk 222, but WOULD take with a 130 Corelokt 270?

Just out of curiosity how many animals have you killed with both of those calibers?

 

[mt terry d]

Great post! If every shot was broad side a .223 would work perfectly 100% of the time.

What rifle caliber won't work on broadside shots 100% of the time?

One you miss with.

Accuracy/shot placement matters.

 

[JM151]

I shot 2 deer this season with a Berger 215 and I have to say I will never use this bullet on whitetail again. It’s just too destructive. The second picture only holding the shoulder/leg was a tiny piece of skin otherwise it would have blown the shoulder/leg completely off……this is just a little excessive. If they were trophy animals I would have lost my mount. I would keep the 215 for elk or up