What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[pilgrim7]

It's hard to get over "conventional wisdom" you heard from your dad and uncles around the campfire. The problem is, most of them were just parroting what they had heard from someone else who also likely had little in the way of first hand experience with the subject.

 

[ddowning]

There's 2 that got their feeler's hurt.

If the 55 gr SP's are adequate, why are the shooting messiah's praising the 77 gr TMK's so much?

Don't pretend that what was done "40 years" ago on whitetail back east is the same thing that was done on large western big game at the same time. 55 gr 22 caliber soft point's used on Elk? Bighorn Sheep? Mountain Goats? For reference, that would be 1984.

40 years ago, writers like Jim Zumbo owned the market on big game caliber selection, and we all know what their preferences were. "Fuddlore" I think is the popular term used?

It's funny, really, that when I said bullet design matters, the TMK was the first thing thrown out. I never said anything about it...

Go read the book Alaska's Wolf Man about Frank Glaser. He really liked the 220 Swift and light bullets. It was WAY before 1984. The concept is not new and it does not require modern match bullets. Heavy for caliber, rapid expansion bullets work better because they have high sd's. You get massive damage and penetration. With light bullets, the sd is low and penetration is sometimes lacking.

 

[ddowning]

The ones that were recovered or still intact enough to tell where they were hit were all in the chest/lung area. Lots of damage internally but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards. The one drive he shot 4 times and thought he only killed 2, turns out all 4 were kill shots but the one that dropped within 50 he hit twice, the second one ran 150 yards to where my brother watched it die. The third we found the next day 200 yards in the other direction when someone kicked up some buzzards on another drive.

The big issue is during deer drives when they are hyped up on adrenaline it doesn’t seem to shock them like the larger bullets do and many times they show no indication of a hit continuing to run tail up and uphill with the rest of the group. This makes it difficult to try and track the fatally wounded one out of the group with no blood trail. If he shot one just meandering that wasn’t running or agitated they would either drop or buck and do that dead run dropping within sight so it worked fine for that.

Same issue I had shooting light weight monos out of the 6.5 PRC, I got a ton of damage and they would drop when just shot walking through the woods. However if they were shot during a drive they would carry it for quite a while until they died. The below buck was hit with an 109gr bullet at 3300+ fps and ran around 200 yards before he died, I found him because he didn’t come out the other side of a tree line so I figured he dropped in there. The bloodshot is on the entrance side.

View attachment 750708

I live in what was a shotgun only state. When I started hunting I was the only one that knew how to kill a deer without a deer drive in my group of 20+ people. Deer hit with 20 gauge and 12 gauge slugs also run like they are not hit only to tip over after a bit. It happened with expanding type modern slugs as well as the old foster style. The same thing OCCASIONALLY happens with a smokeless ML that shoots a 300 grain bullet that pretty much grenades at 2700 fps. Deer are just able to run with massive damage at times.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I live in what was a shotgun only state. When I started hunting I was the only one that knew how to kill a deer without a deer drive in my group of 20+ people. Deer hit with 20 gauge and 12 gauge slugs also run like they are not hit only to tip over after a bit. It happened with expanding type modern slugs as well as the old foster style. The same thing OCCASIONALLY happens with a smokeless ML that shoots a 300 grain bullet that pretty much grenades at 2700 fps. Deer are just able to run with massive damage at times.

Especially ones that are already in "Flight-mode" from the drive that is going on.

 

[Bdmunro]

Same issue I had shooting light weight monos out of the 6.5 PRC, I got a ton of damage and they would drop when just shot walking through the woods. However if they were shot during a drive they would carry it for quite a while until they died. The below buck was hit with an 109gr bullet at 3300+ fps and ran around 200 yards before he died, I found him because he didn’t come out the other side of a tree line so I figured he dropped in there. The bloodshot is on the entrance side.

We had some issues with a 6.5 Weatherby Magnum on mule deer. Those bullets we're traveling so fast and would zip right through occasionally without causing a ton of damage. This resulted in a "Did you hit it" scenario more than once. One deer didn't seem to react at all. Just kept walking over the rise. Eventually we did find a dead on the other side.

 

[Mountainrancher]

We had some issues with a 6.5 Weatherby Magnum on mule deer. Those bullets we're traveling so fast and would zip right through occasionally without causing a ton of damage. This resulted in a "Did you hit it" scenario more than once. One deer didn't seem to react at all. Just kept walking over the rise. Eventually we did find a dead on the other side.

What bullet was it? Generally speaking “bullets traveling so fast they zip right through” is what people would call fudd lore. Velocity initiates expansion/fragmentation. They might of over expanded back to caliber size or sheared petals leaving a very small shank to travel the rest of the way through the animal, but I highly doubt they didn’t expand at all if that is what your inferring.

 

[Reburn]

What bullet was it? Generally speaking “bullets traveling so fast they zip right through” is what people would call fudd lore. Velocity initiates expansion/fragmentation. They might of over expanded back to caliber size or sheared petals leaving a very small shank to travel the rest of the way through the animal, but I highly doubt they didn’t expand at all if that is what your inferring.

While I would say you are right 99.9% of the time. There are bullets that dont give reliable expansion and sometimes expand very little and / or very late or just completely act like FMJ. I cant remember which ones but I know I have asked about a bunch of bullets and been told that on some of them. Please forgive me I save memory space for the ones that DO work and why / how they work.

 

[pathnz]

While I would say you are right 99.9% of the time. There are bullets that dont give reliable expansion and sometimes expand very little and / or very late or just completely act like FMJ. I cant remember which ones but I know I have asked about a bunch of bullets and been told that on some of them. Please forgive me I save memory space for the ones that DO work and why / how they work.

In no case will a higher impact velocity for the same bullet result in less expansion/deformation c.f. a lower impact velocity.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

In no case will a higher impact velocity for the same bullet result in less expansion/deformation c.f. a lower impact velocity.

Pete from pathfilmsnz?

 

[pathnz]

In the distant past

 

[Wyo_hntr]

In the distant past

Mean as! Loved it. One of the best youtube channels in it's day. Along with thlr.no.

If you ever have the desire to hunt the U.S., specifically WY, hit me up.

 

[mt terry d]

…. but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards.

But a hole say 0.061 inches larger (7mm) makes them bleed more? I never knew that. I just learned something new. Thanks.

 

[Castle Rock]

It’s possible to drive some bullets too fast resulting in less lethality

I tried some 160 grain TTSX at warp speed from the 338 Win on camels because they are softer bodied than their size would suggest

I was surprised by the small exit wounds so had a dig around and found that the petals blew off not far under the skin and the shank was drilling a straight and narrow hole right through

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Mean as! Loved it. One of the best youtube channels in it's day. Along with thlr.no.

If you ever have the desire to hunt the U.S., specifically WY, hit me up.

haha! My buddies in NZ all say "mean as!" Thought it might had just been their circle of buddies, guess not!

 

[Ozarkansas]

But a hole say 0.061 inches larger (7mm) makes them bleed more? I never knew that. I just learned something new. Thanks.

I took what he was saying to be that a .223 that doesn’t exit makes for harder blood trailing than something that exits and leaves two holes. No caliber guarantees two holes but all things being equal a heavier, stouter bullet is going to exit more. I don’t think he’s wrong, especially since he’s talking about deer drives specifically. In my experience having an exit dramatically increases the blood trail

 

[Robobiss]

Agree. Have seen multiple smallish whitetails double lunged with a 30-06 165gr core lokt or ballistic tip at pretty close range, that went close to 100 yards. They cover that distance in what seems like 4 or 5 seconds, they can move FAST. Imo you have to expect a double lung hit to move a bit after the shot regardless of what you hit them with—might not happen every time or even most of the time, but thats just not realistic to expect a BANG/FLOP every time from a broadside double lung hit.

Ditto.

I shot a decent sized whitetail doe (she was 135lbs with the guts and organs out) a couple years ago. I was sitting on the ground, she was 10 yards quartering-to. I WHALLOPED her in the onside shoulder with a .270 and a cheap Winchester “power point” or what have you, this was before I was into reloading. This was a thors hammer kind of whallop. She was hurting, bad.

She bulldozed for a second, but got up, and went over stuff, under stuff, through stuff, and crossed a brook all while bleeding like a stuck pig and leaving a blood trail a blind person could follow. She made it astonishingly far, close to 100 yards on 3 legs, with no lungs, and an exit wound you could just about fit a soda can inside of. IIRC my “profile photo” is from a spruce tree she ran by.

Animals do weird stuff sometimes. I wouldn’t have killed her any deader or any faster with anything else (soft bullet at muzzle velocity~3k fps) unless I shot her in the head. She made it twice as far as the vast majority of my archery kills. You can’t count on anything aside from a CNS hit to take something off of its feet 100% of the time.

 

[General RE LEE]

Friendly reminder animals live outside 24/7.

If they make it to adulthood, they are tough.

 

[CMP70306]

But a hole say 0.061 inches larger (7mm) makes them bleed more? I never knew that. I just learned something new. Thanks.

Yes, that 0.061” is the difference that makes the deer bleed while the other is small enough that the skin simply plugs up and doesn’t allow the blood out.

Or it’s more likely the golfball to baseball sized exit hole from the larger bullets that leaves the larger blood trail makes tracking easier vs a single .22 cal hole on one side.

I also have the issues with fragmenting monos puncturing the heart leaving poor blood trails even with a solid double lung shot. If the blood can’t pump it simply drains into the chest cavity and if the entrance is high then the animal typically dies before leaving any kind of blood trail.

 

[204_ruger]

I live in Arkansas. I have killed a bunch of deer with a 22 250. With a nosler 50 and 55 gr bt. Hogs and deer with a AR with a 65 gr gk. I am looking at a Tikka t3x 22 250. 1@8 twist. To shoot a 60 or 65 gr gk. But I will more than likely turn it into a 22 250AI. I use it to fill my doe tags. I have a new 280AI rifle. I will use it also.

 

[bradmacmt]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

And going back further, in the early 1950's my father was a pilot flying out of Billings (Lynch's). One of his jobs was flying groceries and mail to snowed-in ranches (on skis). After the goods were delivered, as anyone that's been around ranching or farming knows, it's customary to sit in the kitchen and have a cup of coffee. Dad said there was almost always a good set of antlers or four tacked to the wall. He'd always ask what the big mulie was shot with, and invariably the answer was "220 Swift."