What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[HingleMcCringleberry]

In no case will a higher impact velocity for the same bullet result in less expansion/deformation c.f. a lower impact velocity.

Pete from pathfilmsnz?

 

[pathnz]

In the distant past

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

In the distant past

Mean as! Loved it. One of the best youtube channels in it's day. Along with thlr.no.

If you ever have the desire to hunt the U.S., specifically WY, hit me up.

 

[mt terry d]

…. but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards.

But a hole say 0.061 inches larger (7mm) makes them bleed more? I never knew that. I just learned something new. Thanks.

 

[Castle Rock]

It’s possible to drive some bullets too fast resulting in less lethality

I tried some 160 grain TTSX at warp speed from the 338 Win on camels because they are softer bodied than their size would suggest

I was surprised by the small exit wounds so had a dig around and found that the petals blew off not far under the skin and the shank was drilling a straight and narrow hole right through

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Mean as! Loved it. One of the best youtube channels in it's day. Along with thlr.no.

If you ever have the desire to hunt the U.S., specifically WY, hit me up.

haha! My buddies in NZ all say "mean as!" Thought it might had just been their circle of buddies, guess not!

 

[Ozarkansas]

But a hole say 0.061 inches larger (7mm) makes them bleed more? I never knew that. I just learned something new. Thanks.

I took what he was saying to be that a .223 that doesn’t exit makes for harder blood trailing than something that exits and leaves two holes. No caliber guarantees two holes but all things being equal a heavier, stouter bullet is going to exit more. I don’t think he’s wrong, especially since he’s talking about deer drives specifically. In my experience having an exit dramatically increases the blood trail

 

[Robobiss]

Agree. Have seen multiple smallish whitetails double lunged with a 30-06 165gr core lokt or ballistic tip at pretty close range, that went close to 100 yards. They cover that distance in what seems like 4 or 5 seconds, they can move FAST. Imo you have to expect a double lung hit to move a bit after the shot regardless of what you hit them with—might not happen every time or even most of the time, but thats just not realistic to expect a BANG/FLOP every time from a broadside double lung hit.

Ditto.

I shot a decent sized whitetail doe (she was 135lbs with the guts and organs out) a couple years ago. I was sitting on the ground, she was 10 yards quartering-to. I WHALLOPED her in the onside shoulder with a .270 and a cheap Winchester “power point” or what have you, this was before I was into reloading. This was a thors hammer kind of whallop. She was hurting, bad.

She bulldozed for a second, but got up, and went over stuff, under stuff, through stuff, and crossed a brook all while bleeding like a stuck pig and leaving a blood trail a blind person could follow. She made it astonishingly far, close to 100 yards on 3 legs, with no lungs, and an exit wound you could just about fit a soda can inside of. IIRC my “profile photo” is from a spruce tree she ran by.

Animals do weird stuff sometimes. I wouldn’t have killed her any deader or any faster with anything else (soft bullet at muzzle velocity~3k fps) unless I shot her in the head. She made it twice as far as the vast majority of my archery kills. You can’t count on anything aside from a CNS hit to take something off of its feet 100% of the time.

 

[General RE LEE]

Friendly reminder animals live outside 24/7.

If they make it to adulthood, they are tough.

 

[CMP70306]

But a hole say 0.061 inches larger (7mm) makes them bleed more? I never knew that. I just learned something new. Thanks.

Yes, that 0.061” is the difference that makes the deer bleed while the other is small enough that the skin simply plugs up and doesn’t allow the blood out.

Or it’s more likely the golfball to baseball sized exit hole from the larger bullets that leaves the larger blood trail makes tracking easier vs a single .22 cal hole on one side.

I also have the issues with fragmenting monos puncturing the heart leaving poor blood trails even with a solid double lung shot. If the blood can’t pump it simply drains into the chest cavity and if the entrance is high then the animal typically dies before leaving any kind of blood trail.

 

[204_ruger]

I live in Arkansas. I have killed a bunch of deer with a 22 250. With a nosler 50 and 55 gr bt. Hogs and deer with a AR with a 65 gr gk. I am looking at a Tikka t3x 22 250. 1@8 twist. To shoot a 60 or 65 gr gk. But I will more than likely turn it into a 22 250AI. I use it to fill my doe tags. I have a new 280AI rifle. I will use it also.

 

[bradmacmt]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

And going back further, in the early 1950's my father was a pilot flying out of Billings (Lynch's). One of his jobs was flying groceries and mail to snowed-in ranches (on skis). After the goods were delivered, as anyone that's been around ranching or farming knows, it's customary to sit in the kitchen and have a cup of coffee. Dad said there was almost always a good set of antlers or four tacked to the wall. He'd always ask what the big mulie was shot with, and invariably the answer was "220 Swift."

 

[Bugger]

While I would say you are right 99.9% of the time. There are bullets that dont give reliable expansion and sometimes expand very little and / or very late or just completely act like FMJ. I cant remember which ones but I know I have asked about a bunch of bullets and been told that on some of them. Please forgive me I save memory space for the ones that DO work and why / how they work.

Failsafes and original Barnes were pretty notorious for that. Velocity was blamed, but a lower velocity wouldn’t have magically reversed the failure rate of a bad bullet design. Who knows, maybe a bunch of them did expand and people were just surprised to see how far an animal could run with a small hole in the lungs.

 

[wyosam]

Yes, that 0.061” is the difference that makes the deer bleed while the other is small enough that the skin simply plugs up and doesn’t allow the blood out.

Or it’s more likely the golfball to baseball sized exit hole from the larger bullets that leaves the larger blood trail makes tracking easier vs a single .22 cal hole on one side.

I also have the issues with fragmenting monos puncturing the heart leaving poor blood trails even with a solid double lung shot. If the blood can’t pump it simply drains into the chest cavity and if the entrance is high then the animal typically dies before leaving any kind of blood trail.

I missed by .0306 once. Never again. Now I shoot .338, which gives me .057” of breathing room. That allows me to get pretty lazy on my wind calls.


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[atmat]

Yes, that 0.061” is the difference that makes the deer bleed while the other is small enough that the skin simply plugs up and doesn’t allow the blood out.

Or it’s more likely the golfball to baseball sized exit hole from the larger bullets that leaves the larger blood trail makes tracking easier vs a single .22 cal hole on one side.

I also have the issues with fragmenting monos puncturing the heart leaving poor blood trails even with a solid double lung shot. If the blood can’t pump it simply drains into the chest cavity and if the entrance is high then the animal typically dies before leaving any kind of blood trail.

Bruh you don’t know what you’re talking about lol

 

[CMP70306]

Bruh you don’t know what you’re talking about lol

Actually I do, and you will see it if you read my previous posts. Long story short a guy we hunt with shoots a 22-250 with 52gr Hollow points, it kills deer but has no exit and leaves no blood to follow. This can make them difficult to locate especially on drives where the deer are far less likely to drop on the initial shot. That means if it gets out of sight in the woods we have no good way to track it and have lost several deer because of it.

The rest of us hunt with larger cartridges, .25-06, 6.5 PRC, .270, .30-06 and .300 Win Mag among others. These cartridges do better for driving because even with poor shot angles they still exit, usually with a much larger hole, leaving a much better blood trail to follow.

With fragmenting monos I’ve had several deer that when tracking I thought I made a poor shot due to little to no blood only to find that it was a solid double lung shot but one of the petals pierced the heart leading to a caliber size entry and exit with a chest cavity completely filled with blood. The buck in one of my posts was the perfect example, tons of damage but almost no blood on the ground, I simply walked out the ridge where he ran and found him as I couldn’t locate any blood to track.

I missed by .0306 once. Never again. Now I shoot .338, which gives me .057” of breathing room. That allows me to get pretty lazy on my wind calls.


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For the record the first part is a joke. The diameter is much less relevant than the weight and construction, I’d have the same complaints if he was getting the same results with a 110gr V-Max out of a .300 Win Mag.

If he was shooting heavy for caliber bullets like the vaunted 77gr TMK or he never shot on drives then it would be less of an issue. But we kill a lot of deer on drives and he’s shooting a 14 twist so it is what it is.

Based on my experience it wouldn’t be my first choice of cartridge and bullet, not when so many better options exist.

 

[tony]

I have not read the entire thread or the .223 thread all the way as well.
.223 and the 6mm Creedmoor are mentioned as effective on large game.

What about the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel?

 

[Alex Genereux]

I have not read the entire thread or the .223 thread all the way as well.
.223 and the 6mm Creedmoor are mentioned as effective on large game.

What about the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel?

The cartridge is irrelevant it’s about a type of bullet and the speed it is going at whatever range you are wanting to shoot.

 

[The Guide]

Actually I do, and you will see it if you read my previous posts. Long story short a guy we hunt with shoots a 22-250 with 52gr Hollow points, it kills deer but has no exit and leaves no blood to follow. This can make them difficult to locate especially on drives where the deer are far less likely to drop on the initial shot. That means if it gets out of sight in the woods we have no good way to track it and have lost several deer because of it.

The rest of us hunt with larger cartridges, .25-06, 6.5 PRC, .270, .30-06 and .300 Win Mag among others. These cartridges do better for driving because even with poor shot angles they still exit, usually with a much larger hole, leaving a much better blood trail to follow.

With fragmenting monos I’ve had several deer that when tracking I thought I made a poor shot due to little to no blood only to find that it was a solid double lung shot but one of the petals pierced the heart leading to a caliber size entry and exit with a chest cavity completely filled with blood. The buck in one of my posts was the perfect example, tons of damage but almost no blood on the ground, I simply walked out the ridge where he ran and found him as I couldn’t locate any blood to track.




For the record the first part is a joke. The diameter is much less relevant than the weight and construction, I’d have the same complaints if he was getting the same results with a 110gr V-Max out of a .300 Win Mag.

If he was shooting heavy for caliber bullets like the vaunted 77gr TMK or he never shot on drives then it would be less of an issue. But we kill a lot of deer on drives and he’s shooting a 14 twist so it is what it is.

Based on my experience it wouldn’t be my first choice of cartridge and bullet, not when so many better options exist.

That 60g TMK might be the jam for his slow twist 22-250. Not sure if he handloads of would be willing to change.

Jay

 

[The Guide]

I have not read the entire thread or the .223 thread all the way as well.
.223 and the 6mm Creedmoor are mentioned as effective on large game.

What about the 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel?

For me with the bullets I've optimized for each of those calibers I have effective velocity for bullet upset and fragmentation of 1800 fps to the following distances.

223 Sierra 77tmk 1800 fps @ 480 yards
6 ARC Hornady 103 ELDX 1800 fps @ 510 yards
6.5 G Hornady 123 ELDM 1800 fps @ 450 yards
6 Creedmoor 105 Berger 1800 fps @ 720 yards

I've listed them on my opinion of the perceived recoil of the round. The first 3 rifles are Howa Mini Actions and the 4th is a Ruger American Predator. These are sub $600 rifles that could kill any North American big game animal. Any of those rounds could be optimized for further than most people can accurately shoot or distances further than they have opportunities to shoot to. Pretty good time to be a shooter and hunter with the advances in bullets and powders in the last 30 years.

Jay