Who are the “random wannabes” you speak of?Who you gonna believe then, random wannabe's on the internet? LMAO......... I suggest emaling Phil Shoemaker and listen to what he says.
Thanks for the suggestion, but, no thanks.
Who are the “random wannabes” you speak of?Who you gonna believe then, random wannabe's on the internet? LMAO......... I suggest emaling Phil Shoemaker and listen to what he says.
Calling him would be a waste of time if he won’t let his clients use a 223 because he would have no data on the matterWhy not contact Phil? Afraid to learn the truth of the matter?
You know, random internet experts who can hardly spell grizzly/brown bear, much less ever seen or hunted one, but like to pretend they know what they have no clue about. They're not hard to find.
Changed it, but it's equally true.A gut shot bear with a 460 WBY is a lot more dangerous than one heart shot with a 223.
Bingo. We’ve established the premise long ago…..ha!
I’m waiting for someone to book a $30k coastal brown bear hunt that they saved up for 10 years for, and then take a .223 on that hunt. That weeds out the keyboard warriors real quick. 100% on board with the 223 for deer and elk. I’ve taken countless deer with a 223 and 69gr matchking.
Things change, even among “experts”. Doctors used to apply leaches for various ailments, and much later prescribed weeks of bed rest after heart attacks. Both approaches were wrong, but widely believed at the time. Isn’t it possible that a minimum caliber requirement, without regard to projectile type, could also be misguided and based upon custom and tradition, instead of objective information?
You didn’t answer the question btw.
As someone who had “guided” for a long time… “Guides” and “Outfitters” are close to last place for whom I’d ask for rifle cartridge recommendations.
Just curious, but what is your personal experience with bears, and killing them?I probably wouldn’t disagree, with the very last being random internet dudes sharing bear cartridge advice when most of them have probably never seen one in the wild.
.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.
What you said holds true for every rifle. Keep stuff out of the action and the trigger if you want optimal performance and guaranteed function. Don't adjust the trigger down to a hairs breadth of trigger pull, and take care of your gear. I've used Remington 700's and their clones my entire life...rokslide.com
![]()
Just because we don't have to pay really anything to hunt these doesn't make the bullet less effective.
Just curious, but what is your personal experience with bears, and killing them?
Guides are no more or less infallible than random internet strangers. Guides have the same biases and gaps in experience too. This is a perfectly valid point ONLY if it is based on first hand experience with heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets in a small caliber rifle being inadequate. Otherwise its just meaningless fluff. Not to pick on you, theres plenty of other meaningless fluff in this thread, the point being that its not just a small caliber people are using, its a small caliber only when coupled with very specific bullets, which are relatively uncommon to have used. Is the guide friend recommending a big gun because its less dependent on specific ammo and he cant rely on a client to differentiate? I was a guide in a different venue for many years, and the mantra the older guides taught was that “your client is trying to kill you”…probably not the most effective way to think about it, and certainly not intentional, but its true that when dealing with inexperienced strangers in a dangerous situation you do have to anticipate them not listening to simple instructions as well as doing some irrational and stupid things that can put them and you in a pickle. Is he relying on a big gun because he knows it works and doesn't bother to try other things? Because its what makes inexperienced clients feel better? Ime all of the above are entirely likely. Falling back on the advice of a guide is no more foolproof than anyone else’s advice…everyone knows a big gun will work, so it may just be the simplest, easiest answer to communicate for someone whose main job is to find a bear, not serve as a consulting ballistician. The question is, EXACTLY what experience is behind the recommendation NOT to use a smaller gun? Never tried it and no interest in experimenting? Tried it with typical small-gun lightweight bullets only? Or tried it with the heavy fragmenting bullets folks are talking about and at that point decided it wasnt good? Tell me the reasoning and what its based on and I’ll listen. Omit the reasoning and the details of the experience its based on, and its just more noise.(He)…prefers to stack the odds as much as possible against him having to do that, so he uses and requires his clients to use rounds bigger than 223.
Speaking of noise.......I'll just take the advice of a hunter who knows 1000 times more about it than anybody here does, and has the experience to back it up. Unless I have the same amount of experience or more, then I'll defer to a real expert on this subject, and that would be Phil Shoemaker. He killed a charging grizz with a 9mm once, but that doesn't mean he chooses to carry it every day or recommend it.Guides are no more or less infallible than random internet strangers. Guides have the same biases and gaps in experience too. This is a perfectly valid point ONLY if it is based on first hand experience with heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets in a small caliber rifle being inadequate. Otherwise its just meaningless fluff. Not to pick on you, theres plenty of other meaningless fluff in this thread, the point being that its not just a small caliber people are using, its a small caliber only when coupled with very specific bullets, which are relatively uncommon to have used. Is the guide friend recommending a big gun because its less dependent on specific ammo and he cant rely on a client to differentiate? I was a guide in a different venue for many years, and the mantra the older guides taught was that “your client is trying to kill you”…probably not the most effective way to think about it, and certainly not intentional, but its true that when dealing with inexperienced strangers in a dangerous situation you do have to anticipate them not listening to simple instructions as well as doing some irrational and stupid things that can put them and you in a pickle. Is he relying on a big gun because he knows it works and doesn't bother to try other things? Because its what makes inexperienced clients feel better? Ime all of the above are entirely likely. Falling back on the advice of a guide is no more foolproof than anyone else’s advice…everyone knows a big gun will work, so it may just be the simplest, easiest answer to communicate for someone whose main job is to find a bear, not serve as a consulting ballistician. The question is, EXACTLY what experience is behind the recommendation NOT to use a smaller gun? Never tried it and no interest in experimenting? Tried it with typical small-gun lightweight bullets only? Or tried it with the heavy fragmenting bullets folks are talking about and at that point decided it wasnt good? Tell me the reasoning and what its based on and I’ll listen. Omit the reasoning and the details of the experience its based on, and its just more noise.
Guides are no more or less infallible than random internet strangers. Guides have the same biases and gaps in experience too. This is a perfectly valid point ONLY if it is based on first hand experience with heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets in a small caliber rifle being inadequate. Otherwise it’s just meaningless fluff. Not to pick on you, theres plenty of other meaningless fluff in this thread, the point being that its not just a small caliber people are using, its a small caliber only when coupled with very specific bullets, which are relatively uncommon to have used. Is the guide friend recommending a big gun because it’s less dependent on specific ammo and he cant rely on a client to differentiate? I was a guide in a different venue for many years, and the mantra the older guides taught was that “your client is trying to kill you”…probably not the most effective way to think about it, and certainly not intentional, but its true that when dealing with inexperienced strangers in a dangerous situation you do have to anticipate them not listening to simple instructions as well as doing some irrational and stupid things that can put them and you in a pickle. Is he relying on a big gun because he knows it works and doesn't bother to try other things? Because its what makes inexperienced clients feel better? Ime all of the above are entirely likely. Falling back on the advice of a guide is no more foolproof than anyone else’s advice…everyone knows a big gun will work, so it may just be the simplest, easiest answer to communicate for someone whose main job is to find a bear, not serve as a consulting ballistician. The question is, EXACTLY what experience is behind the recommendation NOT to use a smaller gun? Never tried it and no interest in experimenting? Tried it with typical small-gun lightweight bullets only? Or tried it with the heavy fragmenting bullets folks are talking about and at that point decided it wasnt good? Tell me the reasoning and what its based on and I’ll listen. Omit the reasoning and the details of the experience its based on, and its just more noise.