What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[mxgsfmdpx]

Who you gonna believe then, random wannabe's on the internet? LMAO......... I suggest emaling Phil Shoemaker and listen to what he says.

Who are the “random wannabes” you speak of?

Thanks for the suggestion, but, no thanks.

 

[JGRaider]

Why not contact Phil? Afraid to learn the truth of the matter?

You know, random internet experts who can hardly spell grizzly/brown bear, much less ever seen or hunted one, but like to pretend they know what they have no clue about. They're not hard to find.

 

[Castle Rock]

Why not contact Phil? Afraid to learn the truth of the matter?

You know, random internet experts who can hardly spell grizzly/brown bear, much less ever seen or hunted one, but like to pretend they know what they have no clue about. They're not hard to find.

Calling him would be a waste of time if he won’t let his clients use a 223 because he would have no data on the matter

 

[JGRaider]

It would be a waste of time if you wanted to bring that cartridge that's for sure........

An Official Journal Of The NRA | How to Build the Ultimate Brown Bear Rifle

The rifle was magnificently ugly. So ugly, in fact, that it was beautiful. Here’s how to (and why you should) build your own.

www.americanhunter.org

https://www.petersenshunting.com/editorial/medium-bore-cartridges-big-game-hunting/371652#replay

 

[JGRaider]

From LRH, 2006
Posted by Phil Shoemaker:

458Win
one of us

Posted Oct 5, 10:06 AM Hide Post
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ONE BEST BROWN BEAR CALIBER. A good bear hunter can make do with most any reasonable caliber. For most of the past seventy years the rifle of choice for the vast majority of Alaskan guides was the 30-06 and it still works as well today -actually even better with modern bullets - than ever. I have used one to kill half a dozen big bears - including serious up-close full-on charges.
That said, I don't consider it the ultimate big bear caliber but it works.
I don't have the exact number of bears my clients have killed over the past 25 years but it is somewhere between 100 and 150. In my experience the "ideal" calibers begin with the 338 Win, include the 358 Win, 35 Whelen, 9.3x62, 375H&H and up to the modern 45-70 loads.
The various 416's and 458's are great as a stopper for guides who might be required to stop a charging, wounded bruin but are absolutely un-necessary for any qualified hunter after un-wounded bears. If you honestly can handle one well they are fine but 99%+ of every hunter I've seen carrying the biggest bores are unreasonably afraid of both their rifles and of bears , which is a deadly combination. That is why if you ask the vast majority of experienced big bear guides what caliber they recommend they will recommend something close to what I have. A gut shot bear with a 460 WBY is a lot more dangerous than one heart shot with a 30-06.


Phil Shoemaker

 

[z987k]

A gut shot bear with a 460 WBY is a lot more dangerous than one heart shot with a 223.

Changed it, but it's equally true.

 

[JackButler]

I’m waiting for someone to book a $30k coastal brown bear hunt that they saved up for 10 years for, and then take a .223 on that hunt. That weeds out the keyboard warriors real quick. 100% on board with the 223 for deer and elk. I’ve taken countless deer with a 223 and 69gr matchking.

Bingo. We’ve established the premise long ago…..ha!

 

[z987k]

I’m waiting for someone to book a $30k coastal brown bear hunt that they saved up for 10 years for, and then take a .223 on that hunt. That weeds out the keyboard warriors real quick. 100% on board with the 223 for deer and elk. I’ve taken countless deer with a 223 and 69gr matchking.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

What you said holds true for every rifle. Keep stuff out of the action and the trigger if you want optimal performance and guaranteed function. Don't adjust the trigger down to a hairs breadth of trigger pull, and take care of your gear. I've used Remington 700's and their clones my entire life...

rokslide.com

Just because we don't have to pay really anything to hunt these doesn't make the bullet less effective.

 

[wyosam]

Things change, even among “experts”. Doctors used to apply leaches for various ailments, and much later prescribed weeks of bed rest after heart attacks. Both approaches were wrong, but widely believed at the time. Isn’t it possible that a minimum caliber requirement, without regard to projectile type, could also be misguided and based upon custom and tradition, instead of objective information?

You didn’t answer the question btw.

To be fair, leeches are still in legitimate use in medicine, so don’t throw out that 338 Norma just yet!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JackButler]

I probably wouldn’t disagree, with the very last being random internet dudes sharing bear cartridge advice when most of them have probably never seen one in the wild.

As someone who had “guided” for a long time… “Guides” and “Outfitters” are close to last place for whom I’d ask for rifle cartridge recommendations.

 

[Thegman]

I probably wouldn’t disagree, with the very last being random internet dudes sharing bear cartridge advice when most of them have probably never seen one in the wild.

Just curious, but what is your personal experience with bears, and killing them?

 

[JackButler]

When I was about 12, I killed a whitetail with #6 birdshot. 20 gauge. It was actually a bang flop. I thought I had gotten older and wiser but apparently I didn’t. Since it worked that time, it must still be a good idea.

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

What you said holds true for every rifle. Keep stuff out of the action and the trigger if you want optimal performance and guaranteed function. Don't adjust the trigger down to a hairs breadth of trigger pull, and take care of your gear. I've used Remington 700's and their clones my entire life...

rokslide.com

Just because we don't have to pay really anything to hunt these doesn't make the bullet less effective.

 

[JackButler]

I’ve killed 2 interior grizzlies myself. Have a lot of respect for a good friend of mine who has killed 12 brown bears and guided to about 150 more - like me, he also thinks 223’s are amazing, are capable of killing grizzly and brown bears, but should not be the choice of anyone with the means to bring something bigger. My bears were both instant kills, but he’s had to go after a number of wounded bears and prefers to stack the odds as much as possible against him having to do that, so he uses and requires his clients to use rounds bigger than 223.

Just curious, but what is your personal experience with bears, and killing them?

 

[Macintosh]

(He)…prefers to stack the odds as much as possible against him having to do that, so he uses and requires his clients to use rounds bigger than 223.

Guides are no more or less infallible than random internet strangers. Guides have the same biases and gaps in experience too. This is a perfectly valid point ONLY if it is based on first hand experience with heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets in a small caliber rifle being inadequate. Otherwise its just meaningless fluff. Not to pick on you, theres plenty of other meaningless fluff in this thread, the point being that its not just a small caliber people are using, its a small caliber only when coupled with very specific bullets, which are relatively uncommon to have used. Is the guide friend recommending a big gun because its less dependent on specific ammo and he cant rely on a client to differentiate? I was a guide in a different venue for many years, and the mantra the older guides taught was that “your client is trying to kill you”…probably not the most effective way to think about it, and certainly not intentional, but its true that when dealing with inexperienced strangers in a dangerous situation you do have to anticipate them not listening to simple instructions as well as doing some irrational and stupid things that can put them and you in a pickle. Is he relying on a big gun because he knows it works and doesn't bother to try other things? Because its what makes inexperienced clients feel better? Ime all of the above are entirely likely. Falling back on the advice of a guide is no more foolproof than anyone else’s advice…everyone knows a big gun will work, so it may just be the simplest, easiest answer to communicate for someone whose main job is to find a bear, not serve as a consulting ballistician. The question is, EXACTLY what experience is behind the recommendation NOT to use a smaller gun? Never tried it and no interest in experimenting? Tried it with typical small-gun lightweight bullets only? Or tried it with the heavy fragmenting bullets folks are talking about and at that point decided it wasnt good? Tell me the reasoning and what its based on and I’ll listen. Omit the reasoning and the details of the experience its based on, and its just more noise.

 

[JGRaider]

Guides are no more or less infallible than random internet strangers. Guides have the same biases and gaps in experience too. This is a perfectly valid point ONLY if it is based on first hand experience with heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets in a small caliber rifle being inadequate. Otherwise its just meaningless fluff. Not to pick on you, theres plenty of other meaningless fluff in this thread, the point being that its not just a small caliber people are using, its a small caliber only when coupled with very specific bullets, which are relatively uncommon to have used. Is the guide friend recommending a big gun because its less dependent on specific ammo and he cant rely on a client to differentiate? I was a guide in a different venue for many years, and the mantra the older guides taught was that “your client is trying to kill you”…probably not the most effective way to think about it, and certainly not intentional, but its true that when dealing with inexperienced strangers in a dangerous situation you do have to anticipate them not listening to simple instructions as well as doing some irrational and stupid things that can put them and you in a pickle. Is he relying on a big gun because he knows it works and doesn't bother to try other things? Because its what makes inexperienced clients feel better? Ime all of the above are entirely likely. Falling back on the advice of a guide is no more foolproof than anyone else’s advice…everyone knows a big gun will work, so it may just be the simplest, easiest answer to communicate for someone whose main job is to find a bear, not serve as a consulting ballistician. The question is, EXACTLY what experience is behind the recommendation NOT to use a smaller gun? Never tried it and no interest in experimenting? Tried it with typical small-gun lightweight bullets only? Or tried it with the heavy fragmenting bullets folks are talking about and at that point decided it wasnt good? Tell me the reasoning and what its based on and I’ll listen. Omit the reasoning and the details of the experience its based on, and its just more noise.

Speaking of noise.......I'll just take the advice of a hunter who knows 1000 times more about it than anybody here does, and has the experience to back it up. Unless I have the same amount of experience or more, then I'll defer to a real expert on this subject, and that would be Phil Shoemaker. He killed a charging grizz with a 9mm once, but that doesn't mean he chooses to carry it every day or recommend it.

As I rec'd before, if you have more specific questions, ask him. instead of a bunch of internet warriors who've never hunted them or even seen one for that matter.

 

[JackButler]

I do understand what you’re saying, apologies if I came off condescending or kind of a jerk. I agree guides aren’t all knowing, but I guess my thought was they do have more experience harvesting bears in real world situations than the average guy on the internet, who could literally say anything.
The point about whether they’ve actually specifically tested something like the 77tmk is a good one. That one’s a bit of chicken and egg. I know anecdotally some folks say they’ve done it and probably have. But if outfitters wanted to test this, they’d have to take some risk. What if it doesn’t work so well?

Guides are no more or less infallible than random internet strangers. Guides have the same biases and gaps in experience too. This is a perfectly valid point ONLY if it is based on first hand experience with heavy for caliber fragmenting bullets in a small caliber rifle being inadequate. Otherwise it’s just meaningless fluff. Not to pick on you, theres plenty of other meaningless fluff in this thread, the point being that its not just a small caliber people are using, its a small caliber only when coupled with very specific bullets, which are relatively uncommon to have used. Is the guide friend recommending a big gun because it’s less dependent on specific ammo and he cant rely on a client to differentiate? I was a guide in a different venue for many years, and the mantra the older guides taught was that “your client is trying to kill you”…probably not the most effective way to think about it, and certainly not intentional, but its true that when dealing with inexperienced strangers in a dangerous situation you do have to anticipate them not listening to simple instructions as well as doing some irrational and stupid things that can put them and you in a pickle. Is he relying on a big gun because he knows it works and doesn't bother to try other things? Because its what makes inexperienced clients feel better? Ime all of the above are entirely likely. Falling back on the advice of a guide is no more foolproof than anyone else’s advice…everyone knows a big gun will work, so it may just be the simplest, easiest answer to communicate for someone whose main job is to find a bear, not serve as a consulting ballistician. The question is, EXACTLY what experience is behind the recommendation NOT to use a smaller gun? Never tried it and no interest in experimenting? Tried it with typical small-gun lightweight bullets only? Or tried it with the heavy fragmenting bullets folks are talking about and at that point decided it wasnt good? Tell me the reasoning and what its based on and I’ll listen. Omit the reasoning and the details of the experience its based on, and its just more noise.

 

[Macintosh]

@JackButler Exactly. As an outfitter their incentive is to avoid “testing” on their clients. And there is a degree of pageantry that clients pay for as well, even if thats not a conscious thing. In their shoes Id certainly recommend something I know will work, even if (when) the client ignores me and shows up with “brand x” bullets, etc. And, guides are no more inclined to experiment or try something new than anyone else, just because a guide recommends what they know works and doesnt recommend that which they dont have experience with or are skeptical of, doesnt make them correct. Not that that’s the whole story, just that defaulting to a guide’s recommendation without that background detail is no more likely to be correct than defaulting to what you read in the January 1982 issue of field and stream.

Edit: really it boils down to: why does experience killing 100+ bears with a 30-06 and 300 win mag qualify someone to comment on the effectiveness of a smaller cartridge, unless we also have some info to verify they 1) actually have a recommendation AGAINST a smaller cartridge (saying “I recommend a 30-06 or 300 win mag” is not the same as saying “I recommend against a 223 or 243 even with very specific bullets”…ARE they actually recommending against smaller cartridges??), and 2) have actual experience using those cartridge/bullet combos to validate their claimed ineffectiveness.

 

[wind gypsy]

We're about the same Phil Shoemaker that carried a little 9mm and successfully used it for Brown bear protection DLP'ing a brown bear right?

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol

Two weeks ago, veteran outfitter Phil Shoemaker was guiding two fishing clients in the Alaska bush when the party came face to face with an enraged grizzly. Shoemaker, armed only with a 9mm semi-auto pistol, defended his clients and himself. Here’s his account …

www.americanhunter.org

 

[JGRaider]

If you read the article, that's not his normal carry pistol.

"Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs."

 

[Gstew1930]

This does not seem overly complicated to me. There is a mountain of evidence on this forum that smaller calibers & cartridges can and do work well on game. To say that they don't work or its foolish to use, just shows that you're to closed minded & unwilling to admit that you could have been wrong in previous thinking. This is also coming from the same guy that said "anything in a short action is for women & children". yep that was me. Its taken alot of maturing in my ego as a hunter to admit that i dont know near as much as i previously thought i did. I do not take anyone's word on the internet as gold but i'm also willing to test shit & see with my own eyes. My OWN testing has shown over & over that the animals i'm shooting are travel less distance than they ever did with large magnums. Just what i have seen with my eyes.