What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Gstew1930]

You're like everyone else on the planet.....smaller, lighter recoiling cartridges are easier to shoot more accurately than bigger harder kicking ones. I'm a recovered magnumitis shooter as well.

Exactly lol, my first deer rifles was a 30-06 at 9 years old (only rifle my dad had). I'm over getting my teeth rattled when i pull the trigger

 

[KenLee]

Exactly lol, my first deer rifles was a 30-06 at 9 years old (only rifle my dad had). I'm over getting my teeth rattled when i pull the trigger

My first deer rifle at age 11 was a 30-06 with no recoil pad. Had to buy it myself with car washing, grass cutting, house painting and shrub trimming $. I thought it was a pussycat after shooting 14.5 inch length of pull 12 ga shotguns with 3 inch 00 buckshot.
No one in my family owned a high powered rifle. I shoot so many different rifle chamberings 45 years later that it's insane. I need to thin out down to 5 or so...chamberings, not rifles. I'm not ready to thin that much.

 

[ElPollo]

I agree with you 100%. It takes someone with an ego the size of Alaska to argue otherwise.

It’s apparent that you come by this opinion honestly.

 

[Bowfinn]

If you read the article, that's not his normal carry pistol.

"Larry and his wife were fishing with me, and because we were going to a small stream I had fished before, which had numerous large male brown bears, I decided to take my Smith & Wesson 3953 DAO 9mm, rather than the S&W 629 .44 Mag. Mountain Gun I have carried for the past 25 years, as the larger boars are usually less of a problem than sows with cubs."

So he recommends 9mm for large boars and 44 mags for sows?

 

[wyosam]

So he recommends 9mm for large boars and 44 mags for sows?

I think the reasoning was that a need for bear defense was much less likely in an area primarily used by boars. Lots of DLP kills with a 9mm here, yet still widely considered inadequate. Maybe if I switched to my g43x instead of g20 for bear carry, I’d actually carry it. About the only time I carry is while checking/filling bait barrels.


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[AkRyan]

I invite anyone up to Alaska that shoots a .223 with the beloved 77tmk to come shoot a bear off my bait site next year. If the bear dies in 200yrds it's a feasible firearm for hunting but if it doesnt then we can put the discussion to rest. It is our job to be ethical and as long as the bullet does what people say then I don't see the big fuss.

 

[Bowfinn]

I think the reasoning was that a need for bear defense was much less likely in an area primarily used by boars. Lots of DLP kills with a 9mm here, yet still widely considered inadequate. Maybe if I switched to my g43x instead of g20 for bear carry, I’d actually carry it. About the only time I carry is while checking/filling bait barrels.


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Sorry, I was being a smart ass more than anything. Why I posted that response was to highlight a scenario where a guide with lots of experience, and likely has a caliber minimum for hunting bear. However he chose to have his(and clients) only forum of self defense a measly 9mm in a known area to have numerous large brown boars.

 

[Thegman]

I invite anyone up to Alaska that shoots a .223 with the beloved 77tmk to come shoot a bear off my bait site next year. If the bear dies in 200yrds it's a feasible firearm for hunting but if it doesnt then we can put the discussion to rest. It is our job to be ethical and as long as the bullet does what people say then I don't see the big fuss.

Well, we're past that test...and so far it's worked well for me, and multiple others.

 

[wind gypsy]

I invite anyone up to Alaska that shoots a .223 with the beloved 77tmk to come shoot a bear off my bait site next year. If the bear dies in 200yrds it's a feasible firearm for hunting but if it doesnt then we can put the discussion to rest. It is our job to be ethical and as long as the bullet does what people say then I don't see the big fuss.

You going to adopt me so I can get a next of kin exemption? If so, i'm in!

 

[Don Fischer]

Calling him would be a waste of time if he won’t let his clients use a 223 because he would have no data on the matter

Maybe, just maybe he does have a good idea. 223 will kill most anything but, BUT, for most things there are better options. Maybe he's figured that out.

 

[Big_wals]

I invite anyone up to Alaska that shoots a .223 with the beloved 77tmk to come shoot a bear off my bait site next year. If the bear dies in 200yrds it's a feasible firearm for hunting but if it doesnt then we can put the discussion to rest. It is our job to be ethical and as long as the bullet does what people say then I don't see the big fuss.

There has been multiple bear kills documented on the 223 thread, as well as elk, moose, deer, even a walrus…. Do you just need to see it happen with your own eyes? Do you actually think everyone in that thread is secretly killing stuff with a 338 win mag and claiming it was a 223? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely curious on your thought process. If someone takes you up on this offer and changes your mind, what about the others in this thread who still haven’t seen it firsthand? How will they know that YOU would telling the truth if you changed your mind and said it worked great?

I get not believing everything you read on the internet, and when I started reading the 223 thread 3 years ago I was as skeptical as anybody. But when virtually every single person on here who has made the switch to a smaller caliber, with proper bullets, says it works just as good as the magnum they used to shoot, surely they’re not all lying?

 

[eric1115]

Maybe, just maybe he does have a good idea. 223 will kill most anything but, BUT, for most things there are better options. Maybe he's figured that out.

I think you're missing the point being made.

How would he have figured that out if he won't try this particular combination that so many people have found to be so effective?

I'd estimate that the .223 thread has 95% of people that have tried that combo have decided it works extremely well. Maybe 5% (I'd guess less than that) have expressed disappointment after trying it. 98% of the people saying it doesn't work have not tried it.

I do get the point above and don't necessarily fault the guy for sticking to his recommendation. As a carpenter, I see a fair number of interesting ideas that I'm not willing to experiment with on a client's house. I stick to what I know will work, since I'm on the hook to fix it if it fails. When I see it work consistently for others, I adopt it. Some things I'm able to test before using it on a client's house, and I adopt them.

Some things though, you can't really test them out and I'm not going to roll the dice on something that might work great or might be a disaster when I have something else that I know will work.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

All the talk about what Alaska Guides, African PH's, Gun Writers and nearly anyone else outside of this thread thinks about the effectiveness of small calibers with the bullets being discussed here is completely irrelevant.

Why?

Because an appeal to authority or getting their opinion on the matter, when they have no experience with the combination of a .223 & TMK or a 6mm & an ELD-M etc., is pretty much meaningless.

If you are convinced that these work, then go out and prove it to yourself or continue on without caring what others think.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I invite anyone up to Alaska that shoots a .223 with the beloved 77tmk to come shoot a bear off my bait site next year. If the bear dies in 200yrds it's a feasible firearm for hunting but if it doesnt then we can put the discussion to rest. It is our job to be ethical and as long as the bullet does what people say then I don't see the big fuss.

Curious on the details here, are you a guide, or is there a next of kin loophole?

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Curious on the details here, are you a guide, or is there a next of kin loophole?

Black bear are available to a Non Res with a harvest tag. Brown Bear no.

 

[Don Fischer]

I think you are probably right but most people don't need to would a dangerous animal to realize they are probably under gunned. Then to there are probably those that do realize it but know how to place the bullet to get it to work. Only problem with that is whet the guy doesn't place the bullet right.

Indian woman up in Canada at one time had the world record Grizzly Bear. She killed it, intentionally, with a single shot 22 RF using long ammo. All it really proved was that used properly, a 22RF will kill! I have never heard of anyone else willing to try that. According to the article I read on it there's a small spot on the skull where the 22RF bullet will get to the brain. She spotted the bear and laid in wait till she got the shot she wanted. Bear went down with one shot and she walked out and put in several more shot's to be sure it was dead. Shows what can be done with a 22RF but not something many would attempt!

I suspect with this thread there's gonna be a few lacking the experience that are gonna try a hunt with something like a 223. Many who read things like this see everyone on it as expert's and some of those will follow their lead.

Was stationed with a guy in Montana in the service that got him a 7mm Rem Mag for hunting elk. He shot at three he wounded and never recovered so condemned the 7mm Rem Mag as an elk cartridge. Sold it and got a 458 Win for elk. Wounded a couple more with it and simply gave up elk hunting.

A guide I knew in Alaska found him a 375 H&H mag for his guide gun. Problem was when he'd fire it and try to chamber another round he'd open the bolt and the thing emptied the magazine. he didn't care. He figured all he'd ever need was one shot with it. He could be right but I wouldn't bet the farm on it!

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Was stationed with a guy in Montana in the service that got him a 7mm Rem Mag for hunting elk. He shot at three he wounded and never recovered so condemned the 7mm Rem Mag as an elk cartridge. Sold it and got a 458 Win for elk. Wounded a couple more with it and simply gave up elk hunting.

Ha!

You should give these a listen.

Hunt Backcountry Podcast 469 | Why Smaller Calibers May Be Better For Big Game Hunting — The Experience Project

This podcast will challenge decades of

exomtngear.com

Hunt Backcountry Podcast 470 | Why Smaller Calibers May Be Better For Big Game Hunting (Part 2) — The Experience Project

This is the second half of a conversation that explores why smaller rifle calibers may be better for big game hunting. This Hunt Backcountry Podcast episode explores how different types of bullets create different wound channels, the relationship between impact velocity and bullet...

exomtngear.com

 

[atmat]

I invite anyone up to Alaska that shoots a .223 with the beloved 77tmk to come shoot a bear off my bait site next year. If the bear dies in 200yrds it's a feasible firearm for hunting but if it doesnt then we can put the discussion to rest. It is our job to be ethical and as long as the bullet does what people say then I don't see the big fuss.

It’s off the table for me with my young children and already being booked up for hints (plus how would I get a griz tag?).

But I’m happy to loan out my 223 for you or anyone else wanting to try it.

With all that said, there’s guys killing grizz here on this thread with (I believe) non-optimized bullets. So the argument has no legs anyway.

 

[Don Fischer]

Ha!

You should give these a listen.

Hunt Backcountry Podcast 469 | Why Smaller Calibers May Be Better For Big Game Hunting — The Experience Project

This podcast will challenge decades of

exomtngear.com

Hunt Backcountry Podcast 470 | Why Smaller Calibers May Be Better For Big Game Hunting (Part 2) — The Experience Project

This is the second half of a conversation that explores why smaller rifle calibers may be better for big game hunting. This Hunt Backcountry Podcast episode explores how different types of bullets create different wound channels, the relationship between impact velocity and bullet...

exomtngear.com

Can't read it but, I agree smaller caliber's can be better. I say that because many people go out and get some huge magnum to shoot a deer with even though they can't handle the recoil. People like that are better off with a smaller cartridge they can shoot. But at some point the drop down in cartridge get's to small. Guy that doesn't shoot much and knows nothing about bullet placement could go out and get him a 22 CF to shoot his deer with and fail miserably. Not because the cartridge couldn't do it but the shooter had no idea how to do it. I believe in forums like this what would be reasonable is what should be talked about, not what is possible. You no idea who might be reading this. The new guy goes ahead and tries it and fails, it's no body's fault but his own. Seem we didn't encourage the new guy to learn more about it before trying it, not our fault is it! I think what we should suggest is what is reasonable. So instead of going out and getting a cartridge that can, the new guy goes out and get one that will and we should always encourage the new guy to practice with that cartridge before going hunting. Something no one seems to think of is the new guy could go out and get a 30-06, perfect ably reasonable but might be to much recoil! So now he's in a situation where he certainly has enough cartridge but can't handle it. Amazes me when people ask about a first rifle for a kid or small woman to many recommend stuff like the 308. pretty good started but not necessarily so for someone a bit timid and can't handle recoil.

 

[atmat]

I believe in forums like this what would be reasonable is what should be talked about, not what is possible. You no idea who might be reading this.

Be honest: have you even read what is being talked about on the 223 thread? I see you posted to it, but have you real all the conversation? If not, you don’t have much room to talk about what is or isn’t being said here.

Also, no one is suggesting moving down to 22LR or similar for bear. That’s a red herring to prove a bad point.

People are talking about using lower-caliber centerfire cartridges with optimized bullets, demonstrating how they perform in gel media, then proving based on use in game.