What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[2-Stix]

You might not want to use them but it does sound like they are working well for you. Probably less meat damage too.

No doubt they have worked and probably less meat damage...but I wouldn't know. I just started looking deeply at my harvest this year beyond the entry and exit wound. The mono tends to loose a shoulder on one side on my broadside shots with pretty bad blood shot.

I think I would still prefer a non mono and bigger wound channel. If the bullet stops mid or 3/4 in then therictically it would save the far shoulder. I am sure that has been figured out on this from some where and I would be curious.

We will be leaving CA in a few years and I will most likely start home loading and running different bullets.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Cause dudes are getting softer nowadays so you see less of the "I shoot magnum". In my day to day observations that is the ONLY factor ive been able to isolate. Same reason guys have no problem going to crossbows, ebikes, etc. They arent worried about being called out for stuff by their peers anymore.

Why shoot a lot of recoil if you dont have to worry about your peers calling out your manhood for not shooting it?

So ego is the reason.

If your "manhood" is tied to what type of firearm you shoot, that's extremely sad.

 

[Hoopleheader]

I’ve had very good results from ttsx’s of large caliber, I think there’s definitely something about a smaller caliber that can decrease a barnes bullet effectiveness. That said, the slowest kill I’ve made was a 300 grain swift A frame on a moose. Fastest kill: 130 gr ttsx from a 308 on an interior brown bear

Those 130s are on my list to try out

 

[Hoopleheader]

Hammer bullets, I believe there are a couple others- cutting edge I think is one, I believe there a couple others now as well. I’ve been using Hammers exclusively on game for a while now, and am extremely happy with performance, much more so than the various Barnes and Hornady (non-lead) options I’d been using. I like to keep impacts north of 2000fps, but others have had good success down to the recommended minimum of 1800.


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.224 Cal-68gr Hammer HHT® - Hammer Bullets

AT THIS TIME TIPS ARE CONSUMER INSTALLED A TIPPING BLOCK IS INCLUDED WITH EACH ORDER Designed for 1-8" twist or faster barrels, this pure copper Hammer HHT™ will have fantastic terminal performance on varmints to big game.

hammerbullets.com

Only one way to find out. Let’s seem them .223 hammer kills.

 

[wyosam]

.224 Cal-68gr Hammer HHT® - Hammer Bullets

AT THIS TIME TIPS ARE CONSUMER INSTALLED A TIPPING BLOCK IS INCLUDED WITH EACH ORDER Designed for 1-8" twist or faster barrels, this pure copper Hammer HHT™ will have fantastic terminal performance on varmints to big game.

hammerbullets.com

Only one way to find out. Let’s seem them .223 hammer kills.

There’s probably some on their site- I’ll look next time I’m there. I did kill an elk with on in 243 win 88gr I think? It was a broadside chip shot- maybe 100 yards or so. Worked well, she swayed and went down where she stood. Was definitely going to be fatal, but I head shot her to keep her down/end suffering. Plenty of damage, though not what I see with larger calibers. Made a solid mess of the lungs and exited (rib on the entry, between on the ext if I recall).


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[Chris_in_Idaho]

...That is why I want more margin for error, not less.

Can you define what gives you more margin for error? Would it be the size of the wound channel, as in the bigger the wound channel a bullet creates the more margin for error you have?

 

[jfs82]

.224 Cal-68gr Hammer HHT® - Hammer Bullets

AT THIS TIME TIPS ARE CONSUMER INSTALLED A TIPPING BLOCK IS INCLUDED WITH EACH ORDER Designed for 1-8" twist or faster barrels, this pure copper Hammer HHT™ will have fantastic terminal performance on varmints to big game.

hammerbullets.com

Only one way to find out. Let’s seem them .223 hammer kills.

Not exactly what youre asking but I'm using a 22 creedmoor with 73 gr hammer hunters. I don't have any kill pics. No issues though.

 

[Bubbadoyle]

@Unclecroc funny you say that about hitting the animal anywhere and putting them down. I had the conversation yesterday at work with one of my employees about rifles and calibers and bullet type etc. He's killed a good pile of animals bow hunting, he's killed a few with a rifle. He's stuck on a ruger american go wild, my kids have a ruger american and they do fine with it, in 300 win mag to go elk hunt with one day. He can't shoot his 30-06 better than a 2 inch group at 100 on a great day. I've tried to explain to him knockdown power isn't a thing, his 30-06 and that 300 he needs shoots the same projectile. It's gone so far as me offering up one of my 223 bolt actions so he can practice more but he says my 6.5 creedmoor is a woman or kids gun and my 223 won't kill deer. Some people you just can't talk to and sway them at all when their already struggling to hit a beer box at 100 yards. I've been killing deer and pigs with a 223 or 220 swift before it was cool on here and I'll keep right on doing it.

My dad has in old ruger 77 tang safety 220 swift which has taken a a lot of deer, antelope and even an elk or two.


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[Ozarkansas]

I’m going to give kind of a hot take here and say I’m not a true believer in the “Rokslide Special”. I’m a .243 and 6.5x55 guy, so I’m a fan of small calibers and know that they can kill great. But I’m doing most of my hunting at knife fighting distances in pretty thick woods and shooting offhand, and while I’ve never had a bullet like the TMK fail to kill a deer quickly, I’ve had some stressful tracking jobs on deer that got hit by fast, fragile, light bullets at close range that didn’t exit and didn’t leave any blood. Even a 75 yard tracking job can be tricky if you don’t have anything to follow but tracks. It can also be frustrating to lose an entire offside shoulder because it got peppered by shrapnel.
Now I’m a fan of bullets like the Gold Dot or oryx that open up really wide but still retain enough weight to reliably exit, and don’t damage any meat that’s not directly in line with the shot.

In summary: small calibers are the way to go, but I’m not a fan of match bullets for hunting, because they do MORE damage than I want, not less. And because I am confident enough in my blood trailing ability that I don’t care if the animal drops, so long as it has an exit wound.

 

[zdc1775]

I have been slowing reading through this thread for the past week or so and I have found it very interesting considering that it almost exactly mirrors the experience I watched in a lot of my family and their friends growing up when they watched me and a cousin of mine taking deer with a 22-250 and .223 that were just as big as the ones they were taking using 30-06, 300 WM, and 7RM at the same ranges as they were shooting. In their minds something that small wasn't big enough to kill deer.

The only reason most of them even let us hunt with those rifles in the first place was my grandfather, who bought the rifles specifically for us to be able to go deer hunting with him/them after he had been using a 22 Hornet, with 45 grain RN cast bullets loaded to about 2,000 fps, to kill deer in his fields for almost 20 years and none of them was willing to tell him that the rounds wouldn't work.

When I was 9 or 10, I distinctly remember my step-father saying that after seeing those deer and the damage those little bullets did he was going to get some lighter weight bullets for his 30-06 since the 180's he was shooting had too much recoil, then two years later he was using a .243 Winchester. As far as I know he is still using that same rifle.

Now almost 30 years later, I have killed deer with everything from a 22 magnum all the way up to a 458 Lott and have no issue shooting heavier recoiling rifles, but I have came back to using a .223 for about 90% of my hunting. Part of that is because I prefer shooting and carrying an AR over a bolt gun but mostly it's because it has worked perfectly for me.

 

[Jktx0710]

Lack of recoil combined with the newer heavy for caliber high BC bullets

 

[specneeds]

Can you define what gives you more margin for error? Would it be the size of the wound channel, as in the bigger the wound channel a bullet creates the more margin for error you have?

Basic Physics is the answer. Energy = Mass x Velocity squared. A heavier bullet going faster imparts more energy to the target. It actually can make an ass shot a killer by shattering a hip bone, Accurate rangefinders & dialing scopes make pedestrian Creedmoors & 308’s as or more accurate than a big 7 or 300 magnum so the need for flatter trajectories is less. But the power & penetration of a heavy mono can’t be duplicated by 243 class rifles.

The most impressive kills are certainly frangible bullets at high speeds hitting vitals. Deer aren’t that hard to kill & average placement with frangible bullets anchors them immediately most of the time. When I loaded my 7mm RM with Nosler Ballistic tips 30 years ago they performed like magic vs corelokts.

Elk are a different story in terms of shot distance and size as well as vitality. Unless you head shoot them bang flops aren’t common, particularly with smaller bullets. Even neck shots leave a struggling to get up elk on the ground. They aren’t bulletproof but are much tougher than deer. I moved from frangible 7mm 150 at 3050 to 300 Weatherby 180 at 3150 with monos to get more reliable stopping power with similar trajectory.

A bonus with that solid copper is the lack of lead in the meat. For a hunter like me who loves elk burger that is a nice side benefit. High speed lead fragmentation film convinced me that it is a real issue.

 

[Reburn]

@fwafwow

I think this thread is a good contender for top 3 fudd traps.

 

[fwafwow]

@fwafwow

I think this thread is a good contender for top 3 fudd traps.

Agreed! Makes for good entertainment

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

A bonus with that solid copper is the lack of lead in the meat. For a hunter like me who loves elk burger that is a nice side benefit. High speed lead fragmentation film convinced me that it is a real issue.

What did the "high speed lead fragmentation film" show? Lead particles being dispersed from nose to tail throughout an animal?

Mind you people don't believe a heavy for caliber, intact, .223 or 6mm projectile can penetrate a cardboard thick scapula, but microscopic sized lead particles some how disperse throughout an animal upon fragmentation. Interesting.

 

[Jason Snyder]

What did the "high speed lead fragmentation film" show? Lead particles being dispersed from nose to tail throughout an animal?

Mind you people don't believe a heavy for caliber, intact, .223 or 6mm projectile can penetrate a cardboard thick scapula, but microscopic sized lead particles some how disperse throughout an animal upon fragmentation. Interesting.

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is no doubt lead disperses into the meat. We all have to make our own risk assessments in life, but I have used mono bullets for the last 24 years to minimize any lead ingestion. YMMV.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Basic Physics is the answer. Energy = Mass x Velocity squared. A heavier bullet going faster imparts more energy to the target.

If that heavier bullet mushrooms and exits into the dirt behind it, how did impart more energy to the target?

 

[roosiebull]

If that heavier bullet mushrooms and exits into the dirt behind it, how did impart more energy to the target?

 

[Mike D Texas]

Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC

Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

There is no doubt lead disperses into the meat. We all have to make our own risk assessments in life, but I have used mono bullets for the last 24 years to minimize any lead ingestion. YMMV.

You lost me at the .gov in the link posted.


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[Pharmseller]

Basic Physics is the answer. Energy = Mass x Velocity squared. A heavier bullet going faster imparts more energy to the target. It actually can make an ass shot a killer by shattering a hip bone, Accurate rangefinders & dialing scopes make pedestrian Creedmoors & 308’s as or more accurate than a big 7 or 300 magnum so the need for flatter trajectories is less. But the power & penetration of a heavy mono can’t be duplicated by 243 class rifles.

The most impressive kills are certainly frangible bullets at high speeds hitting vitals. Deer aren’t that hard to kill & average placement with frangible bullets anchors them immediately most of the time. When I loaded my 7mm RM with Nosler Ballistic tips 30 years ago they performed like magic vs corelokts.

Elk are a different story in terms of shot distance and size as well as vitality. Unless you head shoot them bang flops aren’t common, particularly with smaller bullets. Even neck shots leave a struggling to get up elk on the ground. They aren’t bulletproof but are much tougher than deer. I moved from frangible 7mm 150 at 3050 to 300 Weatherby 180 at 3150 with monos to get more reliable stopping power with similar trajectory.

A bonus with that solid copper is the lack of lead in the meat. For a hunter like me who loves elk burger that is a nice side benefit. High speed lead fragmentation film convinced me that it is a real issue.

I disagree with your conclusion.

The basis of my disagreement comes from experience, primarily with elk.






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