What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Pharmseller]

Basic Physics is the answer. Energy = Mass x Velocity squared. A heavier bullet going faster imparts more energy to the target. It actually can make an ass shot a killer by shattering a hip bone, Accurate rangefinders & dialing scopes make pedestrian Creedmoors & 308’s as or more accurate than a big 7 or 300 magnum so the need for flatter trajectories is less. But the power & penetration of a heavy mono can’t be duplicated by 243 class rifles.

The most impressive kills are certainly frangible bullets at high speeds hitting vitals. Deer aren’t that hard to kill & average placement with frangible bullets anchors them immediately most of the time. When I loaded my 7mm RM with Nosler Ballistic tips 30 years ago they performed like magic vs corelokts.

Elk are a different story in terms of shot distance and size as well as vitality. Unless you head shoot them bang flops aren’t common, particularly with smaller bullets. Even neck shots leave a struggling to get up elk on the ground. They aren’t bulletproof but are much tougher than deer. I moved from frangible 7mm 150 at 3050 to 300 Weatherby 180 at 3150 with monos to get more reliable stopping power with similar trajectory.

A bonus with that solid copper is the lack of lead in the meat. For a hunter like me who loves elk burger that is a nice side benefit. High speed lead fragmentation film convinced me that it is a real issue.

I disagree with your conclusion.

The basis of my disagreement comes from experience, primarily with elk.






P

 

[Jason Snyder]

You lost me at the .gov in the link posted.


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That’s fine. We’re all adults.

 

[wyosam]

You lost me at the .gov in the link posted.


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Not a government run or funded study. That’s just one of the places where peer reviewed journal articles are maintained.


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[gabenzeke]

Not a government run or funded study. That’s just one of the places where peer reviewed journal articles are maintained.


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The funding section lists USFWS, BLM, AZ G&F among others...

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[Shraggs]

the thread had potential to offer perspective to those interested.

fuddism and now mythology permeating off topic….

 

[wyosam]

The funding section lists USFWS, BLM, AZ G&F among others...

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Thanks, I did mis speak on the funding.


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[Ozarkansas]

To get back to the root of the question, I think the internet has made it way easier to see what other hunters are doing, and that can make disproving your beliefs on caliber choice easy. Since I grew up around 6mm and .22 centerfire hunters, I wasn’t surprised by the results posted in the .223, 6mm, and 6.5 kill threads, but for a lot of people, that’s the first time seeing that a 5.56 can pass through a deer, or a 6.5 can break an elk shoulder.

 

[specneeds]

What did the "high speed lead fragmentation film" show? Lead particles being dispersed from nose to tail throughout an animal?

Mind you people don't believe a heavy for caliber, intact, .223 or 6mm projectile can penetrate a cardboard thick scapula, but microscopic sized lead particles some how disperse throughout an animal upon fragmentation. Interesting.

I was a huge skeptic eating game all my life. The film was definitely Not what I expected. About 8-12” past the end of damaged meat. Small particles of lead in meat. In a front shoulder it wouldn’t show up & be ground into the burger every time. Some years most of the red meat we eat is deer or elk. I’ll skip the lead residue.

 

[specneeds]

the thread had potential to offer perspective to those interested.

fuddism and now mythology permeating off topic….

Yes younger hunters are so experienced with all the YouTube they watch. The made for YV hunts where you never see the goat rodeos when smaller cartridges miss a little.

 

[Drenalin]

Yes younger hunters are so experienced with all the YouTube they watch. The made for YV hunts where you never see the goat rodeos when smaller cartridges miss a little.

Are you speaking from personal experience or theoretical knowledge?

My personal experience with almost 20 deer this year is that with appropriate bullets, you’re full of shit. But that’s a relatively small sample size.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Yes younger hunters are so experienced with all the YouTube they watch. The made for YV hunts where you never see the goat rodeos when smaller cartridges miss a little.

Magnum + "margin for error" = Fudd lore.

Of course when one chooses to use a projectile that does not maximize the cartridges potential wounding capability (ie restricts, lessens, etc), bigger must be used to obtain near "smaller cartridges" capabilities using optimal wounding bullets (ie scary lead)

 

[JGRaider]

Are you speaking from personal experience or theoretical knowledge?

My personal experience with almost 20 deer this year is that with appropriate bullets, you’re full of shit. But that’s a relatively small sample size.

I agree......he's FOS. I've been killing big game since 1971 with lead core bullets of many varieties and never noticed lead fragments of any kind. Givemeafreakingbreak.

 

[Shraggs]

Curious - specifically, in your experience and expertise is the reason a small cartridge misses?

 

[specneeds]

I disagree with your conclusion.

The basis of my disagreement comes from experience, primarily with elk.






P

Please correct my math if you can. If you’re happy shooting 243’s at elk by all means keep using them. If you’re a big fan of frangible bullets use them. I’ve only killed 20 elk & seen another 20 so not a statistically significant sample. 30+ deer isn’t like cull hunters with hundreds or thousands of animals to observe. In my limited experience a big 300 makes a noticeable difference in post shot behavior.

Putting the bullet in the right spot is the most important thing if it’s 85 or 300 grains. Most younger hunters want light rifles that they can’t shoot accurately with heavy recoil. It’s a legitimate choice to go smaller but it doesn’t change the laws of physics.

 

[specneeds]

I agree......he's FOS. I've been killing big game since 1971 with lead core bullets of many varieties and never noticed lead fragments of any kind. Givemeafreakingbreak.

You wouldn’t see the fragments- I never

I agree......he's FOS. I've been killing big game since 1971 with lead core bullets of many varieties and never noticed lead fragments of any kind. Givemeafreakingbreak.

You beat me - my first was in 1973 with a lead 30 caliber 150 grain bullet. I’ve only seen a very few fragments in any deer meat. Like most hunters I discard all bloodshot meat. It was x-ray photos & film that changed my mind. https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ing-lead-based-bullets-a-A-roe_fig1_326321990

 

[gabenzeke]

Please correct my math if you can. If you’re happy shooting 243’s at elk by all means keep using them. If you’re a big fan of frangible bullets use them. I’ve only killed 20 elk & seen another 20 so not a statistically significant sample. 30+ deer isn’t like cull hunters with hundreds or thousands of animals to observe. In my limited experience a big 300 makes a noticeable difference in post shot behavior.

Putting the bullet in the right spot is the most important thing if it’s 85 or 300 grains. Most younger hunters want light rifles that they can’t shoot accurately with heavy recoil. It’s a legitimate choice to go smaller but it doesn’t change the laws of physics.

You're like the 500th person to try and argue this point. These questions and the inevitable follow up questions we all know you'll ask after these are answered have been answered in the various form threads. Start with the 223 one. I think you'll find most of your answers there with a lot of photo evidence.

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[fwafwow]

Please correct my math if you can.

Your energy equation? How does e=m*v^2 demonstrate killing?

Most younger hunters want light rifles that they can’t shoot accurately with heavy recoil.

Where are you getting this “younger” wants view, and younger than what?

It’s a legitimate choice to go smaller but it doesn’t change the laws of physics.

The laws of physics can’t be changed. Noted. So what does that have to do with 30 cal vs other choices?

 

[fwafwow]

You're like the 500th person to try and argue this point. These questions and the inevitable follow up questions we all know you'll ask after these are answered have been answered in the various form threads. Start with the 223 one. I think you'll find most of your answers there with a lot of photo evidence.

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Better said than me

 

[Jason Snyder]

I agree......he's FOS. I've been killing big game since 1971 with lead core bullets of many varieties and never noticed lead fragments of any kind. Givemeafreakingbreak.

So you have X ray vision?

Where are you getting this “younger” wants view, and younger than what?

Im younger than the 60 year olds and I want light rifles.

 

[wyosam]

I agree......he's FOS. I've been killing big game since 1971 with lead core bullets of many varieties and never noticed lead fragments of any kind. Givemeafreakingbreak.

It’s not actually ones you would notice that are the issue, though you shouldn’t eat those either.


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