What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[hereinaz]

I articulated it clearly-

Set a defined threshold for performance. The ones I listed are generally considered a baseline. If there is going to be a claim of good or bad performance, there has to be a standard that can be measured and repeated.

The SMK has a ton of data on it, in gel and on barriers. It’s not anything special…non bonded cup and core tech with an inconsistent open tip that occasionally folds over rather than opening, causing the bullet to turn in whatever direction rather than fragment. Its barrier performance is terrible and basic barriers like glass will totally alter its trajectory by breaking it apart.

Every ballistic research facility in the western world studies this. They all reach the same conclusion. For 5.56 on a large mammal, you need barrier blind, rapid but controlled expansion, rapid early upset (short neck length in the wound channel), 12-18 inches of straight line penetration, and retained weight around 80% to retain sufficient energy so that it penetrates.

In layman’s terms, those factors are what created modern 5.56 duty loads. The Brown Tip load made by Black Hills that domed Osama is a 70g X bullet with an improved velocity window. FBI T3 is a Bear Claw with a few tweaks and bonded. The Marine Corps came up with MK 318 SOST (Special Operations Science and Technology) and it’s basically a Bear Claw that has a boat tail and was made lead free via a dead soft copper core up front.

There are more, but each of those rounds came from programs that were specifically tasked to make 5.56 as lethal as possible. Every one of those groups already had MK262 5.56 on hand and found the 77grSMK to be problematic.

That said, it likely doesn’t matter on a broadside lung shot on most animals as almost any modern bullet will work.

You obviously know stuff. I am sincerely interested if you can give me more info or links to studies. It’s not always obvious how to find stuff. My google-fu is not that good.

I am also having trouble finding relevance in a lot of your info, for instance, i don’t deal with shooting through sheet of glass.

 

[Pharmseller]

I would have given the 300 bee up to. Damn thing blew the body clean off.

Ok, lame joke. I will go back to watching from a distance.

Different 300 Bee, Ruger #1B

Same result




Blows the body right off.

My second favorite bull, if only because I pissed my brother off. But still unnecessarily potent.




P

 

[Shraggs]

Wow, step away for a few days and this lively thread captivated me!

I’m so late to chime in to the ops question but wanted too as I’m proud of my adoption and transformation based on Forms public and private help.

I was a fudd trying to learn my self to shoot long from mbr with magnums.

Before the 223 thread, form was talking about meaningful practice - actually in more than one thread. But what got me was his comments regarding archers shoot hundreds if not thousands or arrows to be excellent but most only sight in or check a few shots before rifle season. That hit me hard. As did the expense and misery of 7 mag 2000 times in reality…

Then he posted and suggested buying a bolt gun in 223 and practice will be affordable and similar in motions and with minimal recoil - and transfer the muscle memory to high recoiling weapons that can be shot less.

Then the 223 thread appeared, still a fudd I didn’t read until it was 23 pages and I was skeptical, until I read it…

Lawnbi was an early adopter who also has a lot of credibility to me, shared his conversion and kill experiences with the 223 on that thread. Offline he told me he can’t see a single reason to use his 300 wm again as the 223 with 77 tmk was really too much carnage compared to his 300 and whatever bullet he used and such a joy to shoot.

So my answers why the 223/77

1 I need to PRACTICE A LOT affordably

2 Honestly I dislike recoil & love low recoil

3 Certain highly fragmented bullets create massive tissue damage…

so much so that less powder or displacement in caliber is needed compared to using controlled expanding bullets that diminutive calibers can be used as effectively when looked objectively in terms of wound width depth time of death steps or yards traveled and documented in this case with photo evidence.

Some of you are down right antagonistic towards form seemingly going out of your way to attack. Others have given advice to I read, that was appreciated. but seriously - agree with him or not - name any company in the hunting industry or entity or famous personality that has brought more objective data publicly on actual kills the essence of what we do (not to mention the equipment evals!). If you are that animate he’s wrong I bet you could contact him and hunt or shoot or drop stuff, otherwise post your data objectively and allow me/us the benefit to learn.

- Made a few kills myself with the 223/77 and will continue to.

- Have one magnum left to sell my 350 RM

- Building a tikka 6cm too with one of the recommended scopes

- will maintain one gun, blr 358 win loaded hot with something more conventional. There is still room for that, but I haven’t found a 35 cal tmk either…

- oh, I drop test my sh..t

Ryan can I get rokslide shirt attesting I drop test?

 

[Unclecroc]

When I was 18 I felt I had something to prove and I bought a 300 weatherby magnum and a 45/70 barrel for my h&r single shot. I thought I was a big boy and I needed a big rifle. I then preceded to miss several shots that season due to a flinch I had developed.
It took me several years and lots of diligent practice to re teach myself how to shoot properly again and get rid of my flinch. I started with a 22lr and went up in size from there.
To me my “recoil tolerance” isn’t what I can sit behind and tolerate getting abused by to sight in. It is what can I shoot off a bench or in field positions practicing without anticipation of noise and recoil. For myself that is about the 15 pound of recoil range. While not a lot it’s definitely better than where I was.
I watch guys who have “magnumitus” struggle with their rifles and not enjoy themselves because 1) it hurts to shoot the thing and 2) because their shooting is poor and nobody likes to shoot poorly while getting the slop beat out of them.
When I ask why they decided to use said horse magnum the answer is almost always something like this. “I want to hit this animal wherever and I want to know I have enough gun to put them down”. I usually just shake my head and grin. You cannot argue with these people they are too ignorant to listen to reason. I have seen very few people who can actually shoot their hard recoiling rifles well I’d say roughly 10% of the people using hard recoiling rifles.
This is why I have moved to smaller cartridges because I am more accurate and confident using them and therefore that makes me a much more lethal hunter.

 

[SC HUNTER]

@Unclecroc funny you say that about hitting the animal anywhere and putting them down. I had the conversation yesterday at work with one of my employees about rifles and calibers and bullet type etc. He's killed a good pile of animals bow hunting, he's killed a few with a rifle. He's stuck on a ruger american go wild, my kids have a ruger american and they do fine with it, in 300 win mag to go elk hunt with one day. He can't shoot his 30-06 better than a 2 inch group at 100 on a great day. I've tried to explain to him knockdown power isn't a thing, his 30-06 and that 300 he needs shoots the same projectile. It's gone so far as me offering up one of my 223 bolt actions so he can practice more but he says my 6.5 creedmoor is a woman or kids gun and my 223 won't kill deer. Some people you just can't talk to and sway them at all when their already struggling to hit a beer box at 100 yards. I've been killing deer and pigs with a 223 or 220 swift before it was cool on here and I'll keep right on doing it.

 

[Unclecroc]

@Unclecroc funny you say that about hitting the animal anywhere and putting them down. I had the conversation yesterday at work with one of my employees about rifles and calibers and bullet type etc. He's killed a good pile of animals bow hunting, he's killed a few with a rifle. He's stuck on a ruger american go wild, my kids have a ruger american and they do fine with it, in 300 win mag to go elk hunt with one day. He can't shoot his 30-06 better than a 2 inch group at 100 on a great day. I've tried to explain to him knockdown power isn't a thing, his 30-06 and that 300 he needs shoots the same projectile. It's gone so far as me offering up one of my 223 bolt actions so he can practice more but he says my 6.5 creedmoor is a woman or kids gun and my 223 won't kill deer. Some people you just can't talk to and sway them at all when their already struggling to hit a beer box at 100 yards. I've been killing deer and pigs with a 223 or 220 swift before it was cool on here and I'll keep right on doing it.

Absolutely I’ve taken several deer with 22 cals over the years and I show some fudds proof and they still tell me my 22-250 is too small for deer.
If small caliber rifles are ladies guns then man I feel like a woman.

 

[sveltri]

Former big boomer fan here, I was appalled when I went to hunt with my buddy in Nebraska a few years ago when he grabbed his 22-250 and his 52 grain Bergers. After watching him dump those deer my thoughts and opinions quickly began to transform. 6mm is the smallest legal caliber I can hunt with so going to build a 243 AI or 6CM and test the waters. A couple decades ago my buddy shot a bull that appeared to be not well but still on his feet and moving ok, we had heard a shot near first light and didn't think much about it. Back then we brought everything out whole, only gutting in the field. When we were skinning the animal back in town we discovered a bullet lodged in the elk's shoulder, it was a 6mm "hunting" bullet. I don't recall the weight that was retained, but it seemed to all be there. I also don't recall exactly where in the shoulder we found it. That bull ended up scoring 347, biggest bull we had seen to date, felt horrible for the guy that shot it (probably in the headlights). That bullet scared me away and kept me in the 300 wby club until I started bow hunting almost exclusively. I know more now than I did then and at this point have no issue giving the 6mm family a try at an elk. I have been extremely happy with the results I've gotten with the 6.5PRC, and have since practiced way more than I ever did before, come to find out getting the crap kicked outta you really isn't that fun.

 

[TaperPin]

There are also stories of shooters choosing larger rifles because they shoot them more accurately. A close friend’s wife bought him a very nice heavy barrel 25-06, which everyone thought he would love as the perfect antelope rifle. When he had to choose, both guns were loaded up in the jeep, we were in the middle of the hunt area and just started glassing goats, when he put the 25-06 away - he said that summer on a prairie dog shoot the 7 mag was just more accurate when the rubber met the road.

No, he wasn’t an average shooter, but he wouldn’t want to be average.

 

[Drenalin]

There are also stories of shooters choosing larger rifles because they shoot them more accurately. A close friend’s wife bought him a very nice heavy barrel 25-06, which everyone thought he would love as the perfect antelope rifle. When he had to choose, both guns were loaded up in the jeep, we were in the middle of the hunt area and just started glassing goats, when he put the 25-06 away - he said that summer on a prairie dog shoot the 7 mag was just more accurate when the rubber met the road.

No, he wasn’t an average shooter, but he wouldn’t want to be average.

Are you saying you believe the 7 mag was a better shooting rifle because it was a larger caliber? Your post reads that way, I just want clarify your point in case I'm misunderstanding.

 

[TaperPin]

Are you saying you believe the 7 mag was a better shooting rifle because it was a larger caliber? Your post reads that way, I just want clarify your point in case I'm misunderstanding.

I liked the example to show that while there may be a small advantage in accuracy to small calibers for the average shooter, it’s a nonissue for many guys when the choice of what rifle to pick up comes along.

There was about 1/4 moa difference in how those two rifles performed off the bench, but when it came to shooting them, the extra recoil didn‘t hurt field accuracy as much as that extra 1/4 moa helped.

 

[Elite]

Former big boomer fan here, I was appalled when I went to hunt with my buddy in Nebraska a few years ago when he grabbed his 22-250 and his 52 grain Bergers. After watching him dump those deer my thoughts and opinions quickly began to transform. 6mm is the smallest legal caliber I can hunt with so going to build a 243 AI or 6CM and test the waters. A couple decades ago my buddy shot a bull that appeared to be not well but still on his feet and moving ok, we had heard a shot near first light and didn't think much about it. Back then we brought everything out whole, only gutting in the field. When we were skinning the animal back in town we discovered a bullet lodged in the elk's shoulder, it was a 6mm "hunting" bullet. I don't recall the weight that was retained, but it seemed to all be there. I also don't recall exactly where in the shoulder we found it. That bull ended up scoring 347, biggest bull we had seen to date, felt horrible for the guy that shot it (probably in the headlights). That bullet scared me away and kept me in the 300 wby club until I started bow hunting almost exclusively. I know more now than I did then and at this point have no issue giving the 6mm family a try at an elk. I have been extremely happy with the results I've gotten with the 6.5PRC, and have since practiced way more than I ever did before, come to find out getting the crap kicked outta you really isn't that fun.

Out of curiosity why after finding that issue are you open to small calibers now?

 

[Anschutz]

Wow, step away for a few days and this lively thread captivated me!

I’m so late to chime in to the ops question but wanted too as I’m proud of my adoption and transformation based on Forms public and private help.

I was a fudd trying to learn my self to shoot long from mbr with magnums.

Before the 223 thread, form was talking about meaningful practice - actually in more than one thread. But what got me was his comments regarding archers shoot hundreds if not thousands or arrows to be excellent but most only sight in or check a few shots before rifle season. That hit me hard. As did the expense and misery of 7 mag 2000 times in reality…

Then he posted and suggested buying a bolt gun in 223 and practice will be affordable and similar in motions and with minimal recoil - and transfer the muscle memory to high recoiling weapons that can be shot less.

Then the 223 thread appeared, still a fudd I didn’t read until it was 23 pages and I was skeptical, until I read it…

Lawnbi was an early adopter who also has a lot of credibility to me, shared his conversion and kill experiences with the 223 on that thread. Offline he told me he can’t see a single reason to use his 300 wm again as the 223 with 77 tmk was really too much carnage compared to his 300 and whatever bullet he used and such a joy to shoot.

So my answers why the 223/77

1 I need to PRACTICE A LOT affordably

2 Honestly I dislike recoil & love low recoil

3 Certain highly fragmented bullets create massive tissue damage…

so much so that less powder or displacement in caliber is needed compared to using controlled expanding bullets that diminutive calibers can be used as effectively when looked objectively in terms of wound width depth time of death steps or yards traveled and documented in this case with photo evidence.

Some of you are down right antagonistic towards form seemingly going out of your way to attack. Others have given advice to I read, that was appreciated. but seriously - agree with him or not - name any company in the hunting industry or entity or famous personality that has brought more objective data publicly on actual kills the essence of what we do (not to mention the equipment evals!). If you are that animate he’s wrong I bet you could contact him and hunt or shoot or drop stuff, otherwise post your data objectively and allow me/us the benefit to learn.

- Made a few kills myself with the 223/77 and will continue to.

- Have one magnum left to sell my 350 RM

- Building a tikka 6cm too with one of the recommended scopes

- will maintain one gun, blr 358 win loaded hot with something more conventional. There is still room for that, but I haven’t found a 35 cal tmk either…

- oh, I drop test my sh..t

Ryan can I get rokslide shirt attesting I drop test?

Whether anyone chooses to hunt with it or not, a 223 set up as close to your hunting rig of choice is never a bad idea. I'll also say that shooting mid range F-Class (out to 600) with it for a summer is not a bad idea. You shoot a lot, you shoot in the wind (especially in the west), and the 10 ring is about half the size of a deer's vitals (6" at 600). I've never shot PRS/NRL, but I see a lot of carryover to hunting. Building a position quickly, shooting under pressure, etc.

I'd honestly say that any rifle that allows you to shoot more for the same amount of recoil is beneficial. Even if you are shooting the RSS, a T1X is beneficial. The barrels last forever, and even premium ammo is cheaper. I got my Anschutz used, I put 40k or so through it, and I'd still shoot it at a national match. Eley Tenex Ultimate EPS is 52cpr at Midway, and the 77TMK is 40c for just the bullet. There's a lot to be said for getting a lot of cheap trigger time in.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[TaperPin]

A really good selling point for small calibers that probably doesn’t get mentioned enough, but even the magnum guys will appreciate, has to do with eye relief on off kilter shots. In the old days of shooting under 400 yards, it’s pretty easy to make hits with a collection of comfortable, rather ordinary positions allowing good eye relief. However, for reaching way out when accuracy is the driving force over comfort, oddball positions that aren’t ideal in the traditional sense, either starting out with short eye relief, or a lack of good shoulder contact, are simply more likely to cause an eyebrow cut with a lot of recoil.

 

[jimh406]

The smaller caliber (less kicking one) might or might not be more accurate. I don't think that should be a surprise to most people. That's not the same as saying a person who can shoot accurately can always shoot a larger caliber better.

However, there are a lot of people who can shoot large magnum heavy kicking guns very accurately. Also, some relatively light guns can kick a lot in small/light rifles and some magnums don't kick much in heavy guns with brakes/suppressors.

 

[roosiebull]

What do you call a series of anecdotes?

Data.

It’s totally dependent upon the narrative

 

[wyosam]

A really good selling point for small calibers that probably doesn’t get mentioned enough, but even the magnum guys will appreciate, has to do with eye relief on off kilter shots. In the old days of shooting under 400 yards, it’s pretty easy to make hits with a collection of comfortable, rather ordinary positions allowing good eye relief. However, for reaching way out when accuracy is the driving force over comfort, oddball positions that aren’t ideal in the traditional sense, either starting out with short eye relief, or a lack of good shoulder contact, are simply more likely to cause an eyebrow cut with a lot of recoil.

Oh but heaven help you if you ever DO managed to get scoped by your 223. That’s not a story you can explain away in any circle. I went decades with intact eyebrows shooting mostly an ‘06, but even with a few years of a too light to be any fun 300WM. Then I managed to scope myself with a 6.5 man bun in one of those awkward positions. Sold that sumbitch shortly after. Maybe the “hunting” version of the .223 can be referred to as the .446/2 SS magnum to allow for an easier explanation just in case? SS in this case for Skinny Short mag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sveltri]

Out of curiosity why after finding that issue are you open to small calibers now?

A couple things, my experience with having to shoot elk multiple times with the 300 wby in order to kill them, the last cow I shot center punched both shoulders. She was definitely anchored, but required another shot to the head. Same thing the following year with a 7 rem mag Last year shot a cow with 6.5 PRC 153.5 LHRT Berger, 1 shot 30 yds dead. I shot a couple deer in Nebraska with 257 wby 115 vld, all one shot 20-30 yards dead, shot a couple more deer in Nebraska with 6mm Rem (Ruger #1 cool gun) both bang flops. The results seem to be more influenced by bullet selection than by caliber. Shot my buck this year 6.5PRC 156 EOL blew the top half of the heart away 50 yd death sprint. I am a fan of the fragmenting bullets, my sample size is extremely small but its mine nonetheless. I have spent the last decade primarily bowhunting, with traditional bows, and have missed too many opportunities and want to make up for it, small calibers are fun to shoot, cheaper to shoot, and do the job well with the right bullet. The bull I mentioned earlier was lost due to poor shot placement and wrong bullet choice, IMO.

 

[roosiebull]

Still here for the cats. Bring the heat fellas.

 

[TaperPin]

Oh but heaven help you if you ever DO managed to get scoped by your 223. That’s not a story you can explain away in any circle. I went decades with intact eyebrows shooting mostly an ‘06, but even with a few years of a too light to be any fun 300WM. Then I managed to scope myself with a 6.5 man bun in one of those awkward positions. Sold that sumbitch shortly after. Maybe the “hunting” version of the .223 can be referred to as the .446/2 SS magnum to allow for an easier explanation just in case? SS in this case for Skinny Short mag.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s funny. Lol

I don’t remember what gun it was, or what it was about the baseball cap I was wearing that would be any different, but I got my got my clock cleaned when the scope hit the bill of the cap and rocketed my head back like getting punched. There was a bright red mark across the forehead. Lol

A few years back a coworker had a ladder slip on a smooth concrete floor and he held on and face planted the concrete after essentially free falling 12’. He was like a motocross racer in the movies who runs into a wall and all he could do is lie there and make little moaning noises. I was expecting a broken up face and blood coming out of his ears after watching his face bounce off the concrete. Turned out his head was saved by the bill of his cap - he broke a few bones, but that lucky sucker didn’t have a scratch on his face other than a bright red line where the bill of his cap was. Lol

 

[JohnJohnson]

For those who’ve gone to a smaller caliber, are you also shooting suppressed?

I don't shoot or hunt unsuppressed at all. I got rid of every gun that I couldn't suppress.