JohnJohnson
WKR
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2019
- Messages
- 1,726
I don't shoot or hunt unsuppressed at all. I got rid of every gun that I couldn't suppress.For those who’ve gone to a smaller caliber, are you also shooting suppressed?
I don't shoot or hunt unsuppressed at all. I got rid of every gun that I couldn't suppress.For those who’ve gone to a smaller caliber, are you also shooting suppressed?
There's a specialty pistol sub forum over on LRH but it doesn't get much traffic.It just dawned on me that back when I hunted with a 14” TC Contender pistola, it would have been really nice to have the know how about fragmenting bullets. Pistol hunters must have their own go-to forums?
I can help where he cannot (concluded by him already not answering my questions) and I reframed from posting this reply last night and this morning to give him time to answer yours.You obviously know stuff. I am sincerely interested if you can give me more info or links to studies. It’s not always obvious how to find stuff. My google-fu is not that good.
I am also having trouble finding relevance in a lot of your info, for instance, i don’t deal with shooting through sheet of glass.
Marbles,I can help where he cannot (concluded by him already not answering my questions) and I reframed from posting this reply last night and this morning to give him time to answer yours.
I have trouble finding results as well, so I'm no help there and was hoping the "professional" could assist. His links are largely irrelevant because they relate to bullets that are not what are being used (SMK, FMJ, green tip, Etc). I am not a profession in this capacity, the below is my understanding, I welcome corrections, particularly if data is presented with it.
Regarding the relevance of gel.
Glass (laminated automotive safety glass specifically) is a great stand in for bone. In the FBI protocol it is set on a compound angle, the gel block is 18 inches behind it, so it also test deflection characteristics to an extent.
Bone blind is not a real concept.
Calibrated 10% organic ballistics gel is a good stand-in for tissue, not perfect, but good.
Sand bags are a good stand in for a stomach full of grass (i.e. you cannot reliably shoot through it with most things shoulder fired), which is why there is no tactical standard for sandbag penetration, even though they are frequently used as barriers in combat.
A bullet that does poorly in gel, will likely do poorly in tissue. I would not select a bullet that only penetrated 10 inches or less on game larger than a small deer. I would prefer a round with 14 inches of penetration.
The larger the permanent cavity (I just have to trust others interpretation of what this is), the more tissue damage one can expect.
Well, I can answer for myself (and myself only).Marbles,
Since he is not answering, maybe you can answer this for him:
No. The caveat being a large enough sample with honest reporting. A perfect gel test cannot overcome poor actual field results. On the other hand, it would take very high quality field data to make me believe that a bullet that failed in gel gives good results in the field. When the two agree, then I'm more inclined to believe the results.Is the ballistic gel and auto glass a better indicator than actual field results to include bone impacts?
Yes, but the caveat about honest reporting remains and there is not a quality control mechanism. So, we must make a decision on if we believe them. Because they line up with gel tests, I am more inclined to believe them and think the data is good. I cannot provide proof of that to someone else however.The FBI ballistic gel testing protocols were meant to test and predict in the absence of actual field results…but if we have actual field results (on game), shouldn’t that have more weight than lab results?
I mostly agree. Concepts get simplified to avoid writing pages, I would say it should be obvious the two do not compare 1:1, however the idea that little can be inferred from the tests because of that strikes me as erroneous.@Marbles , @BjornF16 ,
Worth what you paid and maybe a bit more:
Ballistics gel is a comparative medium only without correlation. It is a reasonable approximation of some types of tissue. However, you fellas have hunted enough to know that a homogenous gel is not going to be an equally good stand in for muscle, lung, liver, and heart. That goes double for lungs and the thoracic cavity as a whole because there's a fair amount of empty space (lower than tissue levels of resistance) in there.
One of the challenges with the FBI/LE test protocol is the barrier placement. I haven't seen too many game animals with an exoskeleton, let alone an exoskeleton with standoff. Most of them have the bones on the inside. There's just not getting around the fact that shooting through concealment to engage a target on the far side of a car door, a window, drywall, etc. is a much different scenario. A bullet that comes apart on the intermediate barrier will not (may?) have the mass and integrity remaining when it reaches the target to perform as required. That's before considering the nature of the barriers themselves and whether they are a suitable representation of bone. The engineer in me says that without someone proving to the contrary, steel, safety glass, plywood, and wall board aren't good approximations of anything but the intermediate tactical barriers they are intended to represent.
Related specifically to the Doc GKR study presented, you will note with no small irony that 115 grain OTM bullets represented the best performing 6.8 SPC bullets in the test. That presentation is an endorsement of match bullets in small (or intermediate if you prefer) calibers and highlights the importance of short neck length and fragmentation as wounding mechanisms. Nathan Foster notes that from a wounding perspective, the heavy tipped match bullets in .223 Rem largely obviate the need for its intermediate caliber competitors (my caveat: if you don't need barrier blind performance... and hunters don't).
I agree.There have been plenty of gel tests of the 77gr TMK, and the results of those gel tests show you exactly what you would expect to see if you've seen its results on game, and vise verse, so the whole tangent has been a bit odd in my opinion.
What happened to the assault duck, he seems to have gone missing?Quack, Quack
This is the time to show us the light, give us the real deal
This is the way I see the matter. I’m no expert but have been involved with many of these test, attended numerous autopsy’s and a lot more less formal evaluations of bullet performance in tissue. I think Form has thrown out the numbers and some how it gets lost but all things equal if the bullet hits the same spot, with equal speed, the larger, similarly designed projectile performs better. Due to wind and my own personal standards, I’m not shooting in the field beyond where I feel highly confident in a first round hit where I was aiming. In this case, I’ll choose the slightly larger caliber because in my small sample size over my hunting career they have performed. I get lost somewhat on the wind performance of 223 at distance compared to a higher BC, faster bullet, but I need all the help I can get.I can help where he cannot (concluded by him already not answering my questions) and I reframed from posting this reply last night and this morning to give him time to answer yours.
I have trouble finding results as well, so I'm no help there and was hoping the "professional" could assist. His links are largely irrelevant because they relate to bullets that are not what are being used (SMK, FMJ, green tip, Etc). I am not a profession in this capacity, the below is my understanding, I welcome corrections, particularly if data is presented with it.
Regarding the relevance of gel.
Glass (laminated automotive safety glass specifically) is a great stand in for bone. In the FBI protocol it is set on a compound angle, the gel block is 18 inches behind it, so it also test deflection characteristics to an extent.
Bone blind is not a real concept.
Calibrated 10% organic ballistics gel is a good stand-in for tissue, not perfect, but good.
Sand bags are a good stand in for a stomach full of grass (i.e. you cannot reliably shoot through it with most things shoulder fired), which is why there is no tactical standard for sandbag penetration, even though they are frequently used as barriers in combat.
A bullet that does poorly in gel, will likely do poorly in tissue. I would not select a bullet that only penetrated 10 inches or less on game larger than a small deer. I would prefer a round with 14 inches of penetration.
The larger the permanent cavity (I just have to trust others interpretation of what this is), the more tissue damage one can expect.
I shake my head when the field performance (as evidenced by a decent necropsy) is discounted for gel tests. They both have their place, but field performance Trumps.
Yep.. P.O. Ackley even said the 220 swift was the greatest killer of game animals in North America. Hydrostatic shock is a thing and I’m a believer. Wish there was a larger selection of lighter 50gr+- projectiles that were sufficient for large animals. But I will say the NBT’s work great on white tails.When I was first exploring using smaller cartridges I was told by someone who truly "has been there, done that"
"anyone who doubts the effectiveness of .22 centerfires on game simply hasnt done it yet"
I often wish there was a way to take some of the naysayers out and have them watch me shoot a deer, with them not knowing I used a 22-250, .223, swift so on, and then have them guess what I used. I think they would be in disbelief.
I'm excited to try the NBT's even though the Hornady 55 SP and Sierra Matchkings have been great.Yep.. P.O. Ackley even said the 220 swift was the greatest killer of game animals in North America. Hydrostatic shock is a thing and I’m a believer. Wish there was a larger selection of lighter 50gr+- projectiles that were sufficient for large animals. But I will say the NBT’s work great on white tails.
Dang, man, why do you hate Christmas? I'm counting on them elves to be in tip-top shape in less than a month!In regards to properly calibrated organic ballistic gelatin testing:
1). Gel works and does have a strong correlation with most mammals of all sizes- deer/elf/bear/moose.