What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Marshfly]

What I find amusing about a lot of the comments here is that Form didn’t even start the 223 thread and the vast, vast majority of detailed images of bullet performance in that thread are from random forum members that tried the 223/effective bullet combo on their own.

This isn’t a “Form said” thing. This is a “wow. That looks like it works pretty good so let me try it” thing.


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[idahodave]

Let me be clear I do not doubt the effectiveness of .223s or associated TMKs. I killed my first deer with one in 2016 with my AR. I killed a bull and a buck with 88s last season and posted the photos.

It’s the “thousands” of animals part that’s just a bit much to swallow.

It’s the internet though…we’re all ninjas right? Everyone needs a hero I guess.

 

[hereinaz]

What I find amusing about a lot of the comments here is that Form didn’t even start the 223 thread and the vast, vast majority of detailed images of bullet performance in that thread are from random forum members that tried the 223/effective bullet combo on their own.

This isn’t a “Form said” thing. This is a “wow. That looks like it works pretty good so let me try it” thing.


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Exactly. Vast amounts of “social proof.”

The ad hominem attacks on Form just mean that “he” is winning. When you can’t kill the message kill the messenger.

 

[fwafwow]

Let me be clear I do not doubt the effectiveness of .223s or associated TMKs. I killed my first deer with one in 2016 with my AR. I killed a bull and a buck with 88s last season and posted the photos.

It’s the “thousands” of animals part that’s just a bit much to swallow.

It’s the internet though…we’re all ninjas right? Everyone needs a hero I guess.

I’m pretty sure he has addressed the number of animals killed in the past.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

It’s the internet though…we’re all ninjas right? Everyone needs a hero I guess.

Hilarious

 

[QuackAttack]

I’d take kill pics with a giant grain of bias as they inherently come from animals that were :


1. Hit.

2. Hit in a vital spot.

3. The bullet performed.

4. The hunter recovered the animal.


That sample is going to exclude hunters or bullets that failed in any of those.

 

[wyosam]

I’d take kill pics with a giant grain of bias as they inherently come from animals that were :


1. Hit.

2. Hit in a vital spot.

3. The bullet performed.

4. The hunter recovered the animal.


That sample is going to exclude hunters or bullets that failed in any of those.

The “misses” are the ones that bother me. Not really the topic though, because it’s not really cartridge specific, maybe bullet specific if anything. It’s always bothered me when it’s always great shot placement, except occasionally it’s a clean miss. No one on the internet ever seems to gut shoot anything (or anything else that doesn’t lend to an easy to follow blood trail). If it doesn’t die, it’s either a clean miss, or a bullet failure, or a cartridge that was too small or too big. No one ever misses by a little. I’ve honestly only casually scrolled the various threads so maybe I’ve missed them, but I suspect those events are very underrepresented on social media.


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[hereinaz]

I’d take kill pics with a giant grain of bias as they inherently come from animals that were :


1. Hit.

2. Hit in a vital spot.

3. The bullet performed.

4. The hunter recovered the animal.


That sample is going to exclude hunters or bullets that failed in any of those.

Verification and testing. That is where the repeated success of many people repeating the same test of the same hypothesis getting the same results.

All of those people and all of those pictures are self selecting, but, many, many were admitted skeptics.

Most were reluctant adopters. Moreover, most of the early adopters and many of the current adopters don’t jump right from .300 to .223. It has been shown to be true across the scale from .284 to .243 that the bullets perform. And, shooters recognize they shoot better with less recoil in lighter rifles.

# 1 and 2, the smaller caliber inside 300 yards eliminates many misses and increase hits to vitals.

# 3, there really isn’t a question. The bullets have a giant tip and thin jackets. They will open and create carnage. Performance is on the other side thst they oldie too fast without penetration.

The myth of bullets exploding on impact without penetration has also been dispelled at .223, 6 creed velocities. Also, the myth of armored shoulders has also been dispelled. No skin, muscle, or thin scapula is going to block a bullet.

# 4 experience shows fast dying with no tracking necessary the vast majority of time. And, if the animal isn’t recovered see point #1 and 2 as a benefit to improve #4.

 

[Marshfly]

The “misses” are the ones that bother me. Not really the topic though, because it’s not really cartridge specific, maybe bullet specific if anything. It’s always bothered me when it’s always great shot placement, except occasionally it’s a clean miss. No one on the internet ever seems to gut shoot anything (or anything else that doesn’t lend to an easy to follow blood trail). If it doesn’t die, it’s either a clean miss, or a bullet failure, or a cartridge that was too small or too big. No one ever misses by a little. I’ve honestly only casually scrolled the various threads so maybe I’ve missed them, but I suspect those events are very underrepresented on social media.


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I agree. Here’s one. I shot a whitetail buck a couple of weeks ago. Perfect lung hold from a prone position. Shot felt perfect as can be. Deer hit but ran about 500 yards. Blood was great for about 250 yards then almost nothing until 25 yards from where he died. Come to find out he must have turned. That combined with the crosswind caused the bullet to strike him in the neck and it traveled all the way through him exiting his anus. Literally center of the entire body wound cavity length wise. Exit was about 2.5 inches. This happened 15 minutes from the end of shooting light. We could not finish the tracking in the dark so the animal laid dead all night. I lost both tenderloins and a rear quarter due to the circumstances.

Barnes TTSX. 270win at 300 yards. About 2370 impact velocity. Terrible performance. I will never shoot another animal with one, ever.


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[TaperPin]

Ideas eb and flow - when used next to friends and family with all sorts of other guns, if it kills better, or is easier to kill with, more people will use it, if it doesn’t it will fade.

I think the time has come for heavy 22 caliber hunting bullets - the popularity of AR rifles will insure it won’t be ignored by bullet makers.

 

[hereinaz]

The “misses” are the ones that bother me. Not really the topic though, because it’s not really cartridge specific, maybe bullet specific if anything. It’s always bothered me when it’s always great shot placement, except occasionally it’s a clean miss. No one on the internet ever seems to gut shoot anything (or anything else that doesn’t lend to an easy to follow blood trail). If it doesn’t die, it’s either a clean miss, or a bullet failure, or a cartridge that was too small or too big. No one ever misses by a little. I’ve honestly only casually scrolled the various threads so maybe I’ve missed them, but I suspect those events are very underrepresented on social media.


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What bothers me is all of the “I had a bad experience” is anecdotal.

And, the vast majority of the “failures” in the anecdotes aren’t recovered so how do we know they aren’t #1 or #2 problems leading to #4?

Why does it have to be #3 bullet failure? Look at the pictures and evidence.

So, what is the stronger body of evidence?

If you don’t believe our stories with pictures and video, why should we believe yours without? Seeing is believing.

That is why there is a Rokslide trend, people are posting pics here.

I love the absolute carnage of my Bergers because I get a couple more inches of penetration than the ELDm and TMK. Hard to believe those words.

This pic says more than I ever could about what happened inside this animal before the bullet exited with a bit of the inside on the outside.

 

[wyosam]

I agree. Here’s one. I shot a whitetail buck a couple of weeks ago. Perfect lung hold from a prone position. Shot felt perfect as can be. Deer hit but ran about 500 yards. Blood was great for about 250 yards then almost nothing until 25 yards from where he died. Come to find out he must have turned. That combined with the crosswind caused the bullet to strike him in the neck and it traveled all the way through him exiting his anus. Literally center of the entire body wound cavity length wise. Exit was about 2.5 inches. This happened 15 minutes from the end of shooting light. We could not finish the tracking in the dark so the animal laid dead all night. I lost both tenderloins and a rear quarter due to the circumstances.

Barnes TTSX. 270win at 300 yards. About 2370 impact velocity. Terrible performance. I will never shoot another animal with one, ever.


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I’ve seen similar performance from Barnes, really glad there are superior mono options at this point. I’ll never shoot another either.


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[QuackAttack]

A lung hit, broadside, on a member of the cervid family, is about as soft of a ballistic medium as you can find.

I would hesitate to judge most bullets on that single presentation.


In firefighting, there is a concept known as “all hazards response” and it literally means what it says, from fire to hazmat. It exists because a simple house fire is vastly different from a chemical plant spill with fire.

Ballistically, that shot is a simple one story residential house fire…and what’s being discussed is that a bullet should be more all hazards response so that it works under a much wider array of circumstances.

 

[grappling_hook]

A lung hit, broadside, on a member of the cervid family, is about as soft of a ballistic medium as you can find.

I would hesitate to judge most bullets on that single presentation.

Of course, that's why there are hundreds of pics in the referenced threads showing performance from different angles and shot placements-- to not overgeneralize.

 

[Marshfly]

Of course, that's why there are hundreds of pics in the referenced threads showing performance from different angles and shot placements-- to not overgeneralize.

Well, he commented earlier about a quartering shot on a moose where the initial impact goes through the grass filled paunch. Most of us would pass on that marginal shot but I guess if you need to shoot no matter what, the 223 might not be for you.

 

[grappling_hook]

Well, he commented earlier about a quartering shot on a moose where the initial impact goes through the grass filled paunch. Most of us would pass on that marginal shot but I guess if you need to shoot no matter what, the 223 might not be for you.

No caliber would be for me in that scenario.

 

[Marshfly]

No caliber would be for me in that scenario.

yup.

 

[hereinaz]

A thought on the PRS gamer aspect that has brought changes.

NRL Hunter is a different conversation because they try to marry the competition with the field hunting.

Most of the shooters I met at local matches and many of the big matches were hunters or hunted.

We all saw how effective the 6mm was on target and reducing and controlling recoil. We were ready for new ideas at that point.

When we talked about bullet performance, we were ready to believe, and maybe hopeful that our match bullets could go right to the field hunting.

We shared pics of hunting effectiveness at matches and informally.

Virtually none of us wanted to carry our heavy match rifles hunting and none of us wanted to return to light hunting rifles with unnecessary recoil. So we built lighter rifles shooting smaller bullets in smaller cartridges.

We influenced a lot more people around us when they saw pics of our groups, shot our rifles, and saw the effectiveness of our rifle systems.

I personally have converted many all the way or at least half way. All that converted only took the step after they saw results. I tried to tell them, but they didn’t listen until they had something concrete.

 

[Pharmseller]

Do you guys who used to shoot boomers and made the switch still use the boomers for hunting?

No.

I sold my 300 WbyMag, in fact.

 

[zrodwyo]

Is there any data out there on why our military selected chamberings like the .300 norma and 300 prc over rounds like the 6.5 creedmoor and the like? I’m genuinely interested in what factors lead them to select magnum .30 cals in these next generation sniper weapon systems.

Is it the max effective range determined by when the bullet enters transonic flight? Maybe an anti-material aspect to it?