What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[ElPollo]

I know this thread didn’t start off as a bear defense thread and I hope it doesn’t end up that way, but it’s the first bear defense thread that I’ve ever enjoyed reading.

 

[fwafwow]

I think people are discovering that Jack O'Connor and his .270 130gr with recoil in mid-teens ft. lbs. max was right all along. Everything else is just arguing the details.

I think one of the details is important - I doubt Jack used the type of bullets that are part of the shift.

 

[Marbles]

@Formidilosus I agree with you and have learned far too much from you, so I have to be nitpicky to insure I think about what you say and don't just accept it "because."

The bear thing is the last dark hole for people to cuddle their big guns with hard bullets whispering “my precious”.

I have to agree, having recently been one and still being one in the handgun realm.

Everyone is worried about a bear charge in the classical “coming right at me” scenario. Ok, shoot it in the face which is the center of everything coming at you anyways. You have to hit the CNS to stop them to begin with.

This really is the crux, to stop any moderately sized animal in its tracks reliably you must disrupt the central nervous system or breakdown the entire body (300 tawmahawk with varmint rounds). I can pause an old sick persons pacemaker for 3 seconds to see their underlying rhythm and few of them pass out. A healthy adult human can likely maintain full function for 8 seconds after their last heart beat, particularly if they are already pissed as hell and flooded with catecholamines. I bet a pissed off, 900 pound brown can go for longer.

That’s a nice fallacy- but it has nothing to do with thinking someone is wrong. There is literally no ground creature on earth that can continue with pieces of its brain missing from bullets tearing through it. There’s no opinion there.

Well, it does depend on what pieces of brain we are talking about, frontal lobes are not all that important to maintain agressive function in the short term.






I keep a big wheel gun because, we all need a comfort blankie, don't we my precious.

 

[PNWGATOR]

@Formidilosus I agree with you and have learned far too much from you, so I have to be nitpicky to insure I think about what you say and don't just accept it "because."

I have to agree, having recently been one and still being one in the handgun realm.

This really is the crux, to stop any moderately sized animal in its tracks reliably you must disrupt the central nervous system or breakdown the entire body (300 tawmahawk with varmint rounds). I can pause an old sick persons pacemaker for 3 seconds to see their underlying rhythm and few of them pass out. A healthy adult human can likely maintain full function for 8 seconds after their last heart beat, particularly if they are already pissed as hell and flooded with catecholamines. I bet a pissed off, 900 pound brown can go for longer.


Well, it does depend on what pieces of brain we are talking about, frontal lobes are not all that important to maintain agressive function in the short term.






I keep a big wheel gun because, we all need a comfort blankie, don't we my precious.

A stubby M4 with 77TMKs would be more comforting blankie regardless of the boogidie boogidie posing the problem or opportunity.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well, it does depend on what pieces of brain we are talking about, frontal lobes are not all that important to maintain agressive function in the short term.

So no frontal lobes, no aggressive function?



grin.

 

[Marbles]

So no frontal lobes, no aggressive function?



grin.

I think you win the word game. grin

You have no idea how hard I'm having to work not to go full retard answering with multiple paragraphs. I'm going to have to get a new tooth pick to chew now and my wife just asked "have you had too much scotch" because of my twitching..........

 

[Formidilosus]

I think you win the word game. grin

You have no idea how hard I'm having to work not to go full retard answering with multiple paragraphs. I'm going to have to get a new tooth pick to chew now and my wife just asked "have you had too much scotch" because of my twitching..........

Haha.

 

[Castle Rock]

Wats going on here, do we have to chop off a digit if we use the magic stance

 

[Forestryguy]

Lurking in the classifieds for 30 cals and larger.

 

[willtim]

Lurking in the classifieds for 30 cals and larger.

Yep, me too. I just picked up a really nice 338 WM.

 

[fwafwow]

Lurking in the classifieds for 30 cals and larger.

Let me know if you are looking for a 30-06 Cooper

 

[slatebuilder]

The choices/decisions people make are only as good as the information they have at hand. 223s and 243s are effective as hell for deer, bears, elk, and so on, but generally speaking traditional published information/outlets does not tell us this. If it did, manufacturers wouldn’t have much other stuff to sell. The way people get their information has changed and continues to change in front of our eyes. There is going to be a shift other places beside rokslide too.

There is no reason for a shooter to be bludgeoned worse that what he just shot.

I would be curious to know the age demographic of those switching to smaller calibers and how they got their start and so on. Might be interesting data.

For us, we always just used what we have, with the opinion that putting a decent bullet in an animals chest cavity at decent range killed them, caliber didn’t matter. Most of our experience has been eastern deer and black bears, but I took a 243 elk hunting and didn’t think twice.

I’m 44, when I learned to reload in the early 90’s my dad taught us with interlocks for hunting, Hornaday boat tail hollow points for matches and partitions and ballistic tips for specific circumstances. That was the early 90’s. We knew what the reloading manual suggested, gun magazines said, and other marketing sources told us. He loaded and continues to load all sorts of stuff from 223 up to 3006. A 243 with 100 grain partitions or interlocks was/is his deer go to. Though I have used a 223 enough in the last 12 years for deer to really like it for that, the 243 with partitions, interlocks, and 95grain ballistic tips has accounted for most of the deer our family has killed

Edit: we are gradually switching to ELD’s and TMKs in some stuff

 

[fwafwow]

A healthy adult human can likely maintain full function for 8 seconds after their last heart beat, particularly if they are already pissed as hell and flooded with catecholamines. I bet a pissed off, 900 pound brown can go for longer.

Trying to make the best argument for those who are not disciples of The Shift... If there was some way to know that Browns have a unique ability to flood their system with catecholamines (I have no idea what those are), sort of like the old stories of kids on PCP being impossible to subdue, then maybe that would support something other than a 77gr TMK. Like a 140gr TMK.

Maybe.

 

[fwafwow]

I think you win the word game. grin

You have no idea how hard I'm having to work not to go full retard answering with multiple paragraphs. I'm going to have to get a new tooth pick to chew now and my wife just asked "have you had too much scotch" because of my twitching..........

Tsk tsk. You may get a penalty. Unless you put the emphasis on the second syllable.

 

[Sled]

you actually believe it’s just the magical Brown bear (that is killed easily year I a nd year out by pointed sticks), that somehow these people really, really mean it this time. For super cereal realses.

 

[wirehead]

I’m 95% confident this thread is stealth-sponsored by the firearms industry… just finished my tikka 300 wsm and now feel like a complete idiot who should immediately build a 6mm xx or risk being blacklisted on all draw / tag units west of Ohio.

 

[MEdude]

Sierra or any other company who made a similar bullet could well be sitting on a financial goldmine, not to mention the prestige of a huge breakthrough, yet not a single ammo company has embraced the idea. Any idea as to why?

This looks a lot like more education, which requires reading to obtain….but seems you’re wrong some more.
Hornady gave the 22 cal match type bullet a big hug for hunting purposes.
80 grain ELD-X.

Yes I have an idea why. They work. Well.

my metric is those cartridges kill everything without being on the fringe of bullet performance.

I didn't mean fringe of capability, but rather on the fringe of usual hunting bullet weight. You can take my as condescending if you like, but it was simply a statement that viewpoints, even those that are valid, change.

Seems kinda like disingenuous back peddling to walk back a possibly condescending erroneous assertion / position.

I agree that “viewpoints… change.” Many have.
But, one needs to be humble enough to do so on an individual level to benefit.

 

[Mike D Texas]

No doubt bullet and cartridge technology has come a long way and are much better than in long years past.

I have no problem shooting a .223 at whitetail and similar size game.

My primary hunting rifles are currently a 260AI and 22-250AI.

However, I don’t have the luxury of being able to readily hunt larger game animals like elk, sheep, moose, etc….

My hunts for those animals will be lifetime bucket list hunts for me and they will be guided hunts costing thousands of dollars. I’m at the age where I’m not interested in DIY back country hunts.

That said, there is no way I am taking a smaller caliber/cartridge rifle on those hunts. I’m going to stack the odds as highly in my favor as possible. I have a 300NMI and a 338 NMI that I shoot well and those are what I will be using. Each of you can do whatever you are comfortable with.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Squincher]

This looks a lot like more education, which requires reading to obtain….but seems you’re wrong some more.
Hornady gave the 22 cal match type bullet a big hug for hunting purposes.
80 grain ELD-X.

Yes I have an idea why. They work. Well.





Seems kinda like disingenuous back peddling to walk back a possibly condescending erroneous assertion / position.

I agree that “viewpoints… change.” Many have.
But, one needs to be humble enough to do so on an individual level to benefit.

That ELD-X must be pretty new. They don't yet have either a deer or an elk next to it yet to denote application. It will be interesting to see if Hornady's marketing people get media hunting personalities to start shooting elk and moose with it for everyone to see, then tell everyone that's what it's for. Excellent results shown to a wide audience could very well cause a sea change.

I know what I meant and what I typed differed and I corrected it. I don't care if you think I'm condescending, or even if I hurt your feelings. You can call me liar if you think that's the case, instead of that passive aggressive BS you posted. You won't hurt my feelings either.

 

[Formidilosus]

View attachment 635429Wats going on here, do we have to chop off a digit if we use the magic stance

Index finger is on the side, pointing forward.