What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

hereinaz

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We know one thing, a 54 hawken isn't enough for griz. Hatchet Jack was bad enough to be livin' two year in a cave up on the Musselshell with a female panther but he couldn't save himself from a griz with his hawken...

iu
That’s too small a sample size.

Jeremiah could… “Can you skin a grizz pilgrim?

 

fwafwow

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We always get to "what if you have to shoot bear in x situation?"

I get it, I guess, grizzlies and brown bears are scary ass animals. But I do think it gets a little overblown.

I literally look around first when I step out the front door, partly because the place I live is crawling with grizzlies. Given that, maybe I worry about it a little less because I've hunted Kodiak for years and no one I personally know has had to DLP a brown bear while we hunt there (yet anyway). I've never, yet, (in 30 years living around grizzly and black bears) had to DLP an aggressive bear, anywhere, and I've killed north of 50, so it's not like I avoid them at all.

In my case the risk appears pretty small, maybe in other's experience it's more. I did carry my little 223 on Kodiak this year and didn't feel particularly nervous about it...hell, sometimes I'm with guys bow hunting Kodiak with nothing more than a 5 round 44 for bear defense. So...?

I may just be a dummy though, hopefully I don't end up a statistic. There will be a thread here, "Remember that guy that hunted around brown bears with a 223? Well..."

Seriously though, if guys hunt around brown bears and grizzlies with nothing more than a handgun for bear defense, which they do, we may be overthinking it.
You said it a lot better than the long-winded post I was working on. But I expect someone will post that a 44 magnum is better than a 223 with 77gr TMKs (or 6.5 CM with 140 TMKs).
 

FYG

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You said it a lot better than the long-winded post I was working on. But I expect someone will post that a 44 magnum is better than a 223 with 77gr TMKs (or 6.5 CM with 140 TMKs).
I do find it interesting when it comes to bears how many guys will beat their chests on having the biggest revolver, but then poo-poo most rifle loads. These guys are the same ones who put a lot of weight into muzzle energy. Just run the numbers for yourself- Grizzly's .44 mag loads of 320gr hard casts at 1350 have basically the same energy at the muzzle (1295) as a 55gr pill at 3650fps out of a 22-250 at 75 yards (1294).

From personal experience, a 55gr bullet behind the ear will shut the lights off on a bear pretty damn quick.
 

TaperPin

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I think there is an in between. There are plenty of rifles that aren’t massive, heavy, very hard to shoot rifles. But I guess if it’s a 375, it’s probably going to be very hard to shoot if it’s not heavy, or very well braked. If one practices moving targets from a carry position (or slung if you’re going to use one), a well fitted rifle in a moderate recoiling cartridge (06 based cartridges for example) isn’t that hard to shoot quickly, and accurately. Like shooting at anything moving, practice is important. I’m not an AR guy, but I’d imagine that is a great platform if one is practiced with it- certainly part of the design plan. In my mind, a hunting rifle should point as comfortably as quickly as a shotgun. A lot of game gets killed close, quick, and offhand, though I’d bet a lots gets wounded or missed by people who sight in off a bench and call it good.


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When I lived on Kodiak the peep sighted 7 lb 375 H&H practice we did shooting empty shotgun hulls at 10 yards was interesting. It was much like quickly shooting a shotgun - and about the only time that gun was comfortable to shoot. It wasn’t until 7th or 8th range session that the practice felt like it was really paying off and times were at least cut in half over the first few times.

My shooting buddy had a 45-70 Marlin and that gun will really put lead down range - levers are so foreign to my muscle memory it felt like throwing a baseball left handed, but he was good with it. Lol

I definitely wouldn’t want to shoot either prone without lead filled sissy bag. 🙂
 
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wyosam

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Of course. But at that point, the wound created by a 30/06 isn’t functionally different or better than a 223.





It’s interesting that usually (not saying you are) when people mention pointing like a shotgun”, they generally mean something like this-

I am not saying it right or wrong, it’s just that people use “shotgun” as a marker of shooting offhand quickly, swinging correctly, etc. and yet at the highest levels you see that they left the open, swept back grips and low cheek pieces a long time ago, and now use things that resemble modern rifles- vertical grips, raised cheek pieces, etc.


Yeah, I meant the “spirit” of how a shotgun should point- which the modern trap guns make it much easier to do instead of just trying different guns until one happens to be “right enough”. That point ability is key for me- when it comes to shoulder offhand, my cheek should hit the comb and I should be centered behind the scope, and crosshairs should land very near where I’m looking with both eyes open. Shouldn’t be any thought mucking up the works to get there. Lots of practice with low recoil rounds at moving targets. I like reduced cast bullet loads for that kind of practice- I’d probably add a 223 barrel to the mix, but don’t really want to buy another bolt. 6 Dasher feeds wonderful from tikka magazines without touching a thing though.


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hereinaz

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View attachment 635192

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I am not saying it right or wrong, it’s just that people use “shotgun” as a marker of shooting offhand quickly, swinging correctly, etc. and yet at the highest levels you see that they left the open, swept back grips and low cheek pieces a long time ago, and now use things that resemble modern rifles- vertical grips, raised cheek pieces, etc.

Near vertical grip, eye high above the bore, high comb, flat or negative comb, trigger finger extended with first joint perpendicular, elbows out, support hand rotated clockwise so the thumb is around the barrel...

Except for the distance from grip to finger, something seems very familiar about those pictures...

1701475999740.png
What's
 

Formidilosus

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Near vertical grip, eye high above the bore, high comb, flat or negative comb, trigger finger extended with first joint perpendicular, elbows out, support hand rotated clockwise so the thumb is around the barrel...

Except for the distance from grip to finger, something seems very familiar about those pictures...

View attachment 635283
What's


I been known to shoot a bit…
 

Elite

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I’m curious why some states/provinces don’t allow certain cartridges on big game? My province it is illegal to hunt with anything smaller then a 243. What’s everyone’s thoughts on this


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Bluefish

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I’m curious why some states/provinces don’t allow certain cartridges on big game? My province it is illegal to hunt with anything smaller then a 243. What’s everyone’s thoughts on this


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Colorado is the same. I expect it’s due to the laws not keeping up with technology. 20 years ago would anyone here have said a 223 was enough for elk?
many Midwest states have laws to limit effective range, ie straightwall cartridges or larger calibers only.
 

hereinaz

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I’m curious why some states/provinces don’t allow certain cartridges on big game? My province it is illegal to hunt with anything smaller then a 243. What’s everyone’s thoughts on this


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Same mentality and erroneous beliefs that the converts to .223 had to abandon from the old skool. (Edited)
 
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gabenzeke

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Colorado is the same. I expect it’s due to the laws not keeping up with technology. 20 years ago would anyone here have said a 223 was enough for elk?
many Midwest states have laws to limit effective range, ie straightwall cartridges or larger calibers only.
In Iowa, the only bottleneck cartridges we can use for deer have to be .35 or larger. I believe they thought this would limit people to shorter range shots. But it's dumb. What if I build a 375 cheytac or something? Totally legal. Whoever makes these laws sucks at life.

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TaperPin

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I know you guys are tired of me talking about my friends, but I hope someone is figuring out how to publish a book about hunting with the small calibers.

The three most significant changes to shooting in my lifetime have been laser rangefinders, reliably scopes that dial, and now, effective hunting bullets for smaller calibers. If you asked me a year ago if I’d ever put a big game rifle together based on a centerfire 22, that would have seemed crazy, but my grandson will get a little fast twist 223 hunting rifle. Even way back when, we all knew guys that shot everything with what would consider light bullets that just fly apart, but there wasn’t a resource that described it well, or dug into the reliability of taking game with them, and what is known to work and not work. If an old fud like myself would buy the book, there must be a large percentage of the hunters all across the country that would find it interesting.

Somebody is going to write this kind of book, and while hunting books don’t make anyone rich, it would be nice to see it go to the guys who are making the change happen.

🙂
 

thinhorn_AK

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I do find it interesting when it comes to bears how many guys will beat their chests on having the biggest revolver, but then poo-poo most rifle loads. These guys are the same ones who put a lot of weight into muzzle energy. Just run the numbers for yourself- Grizzly's .44 mag loads of 320gr hard casts at 1350 have basically the same energy at the muzzle (1295) as a 55gr pill at 3650fps out of a 22-250 at 75 yards (1294).

From personal experience, a 55gr bullet behind the ear will shut the lights off on a bear pretty damn quick.
Man those massive 5lb bear revolvers are terrible. I used to tote around a 44mag, im
Much happier with my 10mm now. Less weight, almost 3x the rounds available, easier to shoot.
 

thinhorn_AK

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I know you guys are tired of me talking about my friends, but I hope someone is figuring out how to publish a book about hunting with the small calibers.

The three most significant changes to shooting in my lifetime have been laser rangefinders, reliably scopes that dial, and now, effective hunting bullets for smaller calibers. If you asked me a year ago if I’d ever put a big game rifle together based on a centerfire 22, that would have seemed crazy, but my grandson will get a little fast twist 223 hunting rifle. Even way back when, we all knew guys that shot everything with what would consider light bullets that just fly apart, but there wasn’t a resource that described it well, or dug into the reliability of taking game with them, and what is known to work and not work. If an old fud like myself would buy the book, there must be a large percentage of the hunters all across the country that would find it interesting.

Somebody is going to write this kind of book, and while hunting books don’t make anyone rich, it would be nice to see it go to the guys who are making the change happen.

🙂
There’s lots of books that discuss hunting with smaller cartridges, mentioned “hunting the Rocky Mountain goat” where the author has killed numerous goats with a 257 Robert’s. Heck, before the Alaska national guard showed up with the 30-06, guys were still messing around with 44-40s, 30-30, 250-3000 savages and all that stuff.
 
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