What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Anschutz]

Yes, some good points but not what I was talking about at all. I mentioned the articles about hunting Big Deer, not African game. The Deer won't know if the shooter was a Marine.
Only talking about Deer and writers referencing Deer.

Okay. A Florida Whitetail is about a third of the size of a Canadian Whitetail. What I said about quartering angles still applies. I mentioned African Game because he will have a bias towards larger cartridges. I'd be willing to bet on his ability to shoot his choice (.270) being greater than the average shooter with something smaller.

My comment on him being a old/a Marine was more of a comment at being slower to adopt change, which goes along with his experiences in that time.

Even with his roundabout way of getting to the point of the article, much like his personal journey to arrive to his conclusion, the .270 is very shootable, retains velocity beyond what many are capable of shooting, and, in my area, had greater rifle and ammo availability during the "Great Sniffle Crisis" than many other cartridges.

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[JohnJohnson]

A Florida Whitetail is about a third of the size of a Canadian Whitetail. What I said about quartering angles still applies.

Unsure what part of Florida you're in but Florida bucks can get to 170-180+ pounds. And, that aside, are you saying if a deer is let's say 300 pounds it makes an identifiable difference in taking an ethical shot? I mean if it's quartering away and you want to be able to shoot through its back leg all the way to its lungs I guess it could be a factor.

 

[svivian]

So ol lamb slayer is insinuating mid sized 6.5s are marginal for deer.

Source? Pretty please

 

[TaperPin]

I don‘t put much faith in ballistic gel, but it was interesting to watch a 6.5 prc, 7 prc and 300 prc shot into the same block. When it was smacked with the 300 there was a lot going on inside there, even though penetration was very similar.

Most guys shouldn‘t have a 300 as an only rifle, but they are fun. Lol

 

[Bluefish]

I was having a conversation about smaller calibers for elk today and I had a thought on why the rule has been big bores for so long. 1) almost any bullet in a larger caliber will get the job done while on 223, only a few will. 2) hard to educate people about which bullets work and what speed it needs to be going. General population doesn’t get into the details. 3) a 30-06 or 300 win mag will work at normal sub 300 yard ranges if the shooter can hit the animal vitals and no one wants to admit they can’t shoot a 30 cal rifle well enough to hit the vitals on an elk.
In summary, using small caliber rifles to take big game takes knowledge thats not yet common.

 

[wind gypsy]

Source? Pretty please

Are you asking about the lamb slayer thing? His wife shot a sheep some insist was sub-legal with an outfitter in the unlimiteds a couple years ago. Reckon his experience sheep hunting is probably silly for me to poke at though..

Craig Boddington

Wow! Donna took a ram today from one of Montana’s “unlimited permit” zones. This is really beating the odds…and gonna be tasty! Ryan Count and son Clay really know the area and we’ve seen a lot of...

www.facebook.com

 

[Nomosendero]

Okay. A Florida Whitetail is about a third of the size of a Canadian Whitetail. What I said about quartering angles still applies. I mentioned African Game because he will have a bias towards larger cartridges. I'd be willing to bet on his ability to shoot his choice (.270) being greater than the average shooter with something smaller.

My comment on him being a old/a Marine was more of a comment at being slower to adopt change, which goes along with his experiences in that time.

Even with his roundabout way of getting to the point of the article, much like his personal journey to arrive to his conclusion, the .270 is very shootable, retains velocity beyond what many are capable of shooting, and, in my area, had greater rifle and ammo availability during the "Great Sniffle Crisis" than many other cartridges.

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And?
I have no doubt that the 77TMK is fine for the Canuck Deer as well!
Some who have killed Elk with that bullet might agree!

 

[atmat]

I don‘t put much faith in ballistic gel

Huh? There’s countless studies on it, and it’s validated.

 

[TaperPin]

Huh? There’s countless studies on it, and it’s validated.

That may be true, I just don’t know enough about it and don’t pay much attention. To sell a 300 mag all a guy needs to do is shoot it next to a small caliber. The small gun makes it giggle and there’s a little temp cavity and little permanent cavity - the 300 makes a gigantic cavity and the block jumps off the deck and does a double back flip. Lol

 

[atmat]

That may be true, I just don’t know enough about it and don’t pay much attention. To sell a 300 mag all a guy needs to do is shoot it next to a small caliber. The small gun makes it giggle and there’s a little temp cavity and little permanent cavity - the 300 makes a gigantic cavity and the block jumps off the deck and does a double back flip. Lol

Wut?

 

[Buzby]

Bigger Guns for Bigger Bucks - Game & Fish

Hunting cartridges are not equal, and neither are deer. Do today's deer hunters use enough gun?

www.gameandfishmag.com

Context matters. Y'all can read the article if you want, but the author (Craig Boddington) states towards the end that he prefers the .270 Win for general purpose deer hunting. There's a few things that does set the CB apart from many hunters.

A) He's a gun writer. He's not using a TMK or similar in T&E and is likely personally using what he's had good experiences with testing on game in over 40 years of testing for his writings.

B) He hunts a lot in Africa. He's considered a person to listen to on hunting the Big 5, which means .375 and up in most countries. Recoil has been a large part of his career. I've read many articles of his on big rifles, and he shoots them quite well.

C) He's a retired Marine. The Marines are consistently behind the times on updating equipment. Part of that is budget, but it's also steeped in their tradition of placing an emphasis on rifle marksmanship. The Army fully replaced the M16 by 2010, while the Marines did not until 2016.

D) His opinions are based on his personal use of several different cartridges from .223 and up. I doubt he's used the TMK, but his observations (small entrance, rarely exit, poor blood trails) are consistent with what I've seen in the .223 thread (Most of the photos, about 60% of the text, I skip the quarreling).

E) If you take the cartridges out of the article, there's a lot of good points. Like shoot a rifle you're comfortable with, understanding that less penetration takes away certain shot presentations (i.e. You can shoot a Florida Whitetail at a more extreme quartering angle than an Alaska Moose)

My opinion remains to shoot what makes you happy, just as he does.

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One of his not so good points;

“My belief is “enough gun” is a subtle blend of bullet energy, weight, diameter (frontal area) and performance.” CB

He was correct on the last one, performance.

 

[Anschutz]

One of his not so good points;

“My belief is “enough gun” is a subtle blend of bullet energy, weight, diameter (frontal area) and performance.” CB

He was correct on the last one, performance.

Yeah. He probably subscribes to some form of Optimal Game Weight. I can't remember the formula, but the frontal area was part of it. There are too many variables in bullet design for it to matter to me. Accuracy, impact velocity, and performance are my criteria.

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[Mike Islander]

Okay. A Florida Whitetail is about a third of the size of a Canadian Whitetail.

You are high by a full Florida whitetail.

 

[Anschutz]

You are high by a full Florida whitetail.

I should correct myself to the Key subspecies. Saw one on a dive trip years ago and thought it was a fawn until it lifted its head and had a little velvet rack.

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[eoperator]

Wut?

I made several giant 80lb blocks of gel last year, Taperpin's description of gel blocks doing double back flips from larger calibers is correct. 223 would not move my block at all, 6cm maybe ~1/2"-1" , 6.5 would move/turn it ~2-4", 7mm 180eldm would move the block 6-8" turning it 1/4 turn , 300mag 225eldm damn near flipped the block over and busted the 2.5' square of 3/4" plywood under it in half. There is a huge difference in gel block reaction between 223 and 300mag.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I made several giant 80lb blocks of gel last year, Taperpin's description of gel blocks doing double back flips from larger calibers is correct. 223 would not move my block at all, 6cm maybe ~1/2"-1" , 6.5 would move/turn it ~2-4", 7mm 180eldm would move the block 6-8" turning it 1/4 turn , 300mag 225eldm damn near flipped the block over and busted the 2.5' square of 3/4" plywood under it in half. There is a huge difference in gel block reaction between 223 and 300mag.

I don't doubt that but how much does that matter as opposed to the actual wound channel?

 

[atmat]

I made several giant 80lb blocks of gel last year, Taperpin's description of gel blocks doing double back flips from larger calibers is correct. 223 would not move my block at all, 6cm maybe ~1/2"-1" , 6.5 would move/turn it ~2-4", 7mm 180eldm would move the block 6-8" turning it 1/4 turn , 300mag 225eldm damn near flipped the block over and busted the 2.5' square of 3/4" plywood under it in half. There is a huge difference in gel block reaction between 223 and 300mag.

Did you use 10% organic gel that was calibrated? Because that’s what’s been validated against pig tissue and used in studies.

 

[JohnJohnson]

To sell a 300 mag all a guy needs to do is shoot it next to a small caliber.

That's true at least. Shooting my 300WM next to a 6.5 did cause me to question why I was paying 1.5-2x as much per round with 3-4x the recoil for roughly 10% better external ballistics. I ended up selling it so we agree there.

 

[Nomosendero]

In the article link above, CB said the "Fast" 25's are "adequate" Whew, I am glad I got by with those! Me and my brothers have killed a pile of Whitetails, WY. Mule Deer and Antelope with 25-06's, 25-06AI and lately with a 257 Wea. One of my boys uses a Sendero 25-06 with 115 Nos. Bal Tip. We thought at least by quick deaths we saw and by wound channels that they were a little more dramatic than "adequate".
I see he had to move his daughters up to a 7-08 from a 260 which would also mean the CM would have been too light.
OKAY, whatever.
I do believe part of these gun writers' missions are to sell more rifles.

 

[Nomosendero]

But then again, I don't want to explain to my Wife that I really don't need some of my guns, so there is that!