We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[280ack]

I have tried to find an organization that would speak for the NR hunters who mostly make up the voices here. I could NOT find a single organization (RMEF, Safari Club or BCHA) that would question or raise issue with the established states sovereign right to manage the animals and the methods of issuing tags and addressing the costs of tags. The cost of NR tags vs residents, the ratios are absurd.
The consistent issues from year to year appear to be:
1. Point creep
2. Tag costs
3. Allocation of tags for Residents vs NR
Other issues exist such as game management plans, resource allocations including biologists and LE.

States consider PP and Special tags optional, as many said if you don't like the fees don't apply/hunt. Currently, as a NR I/we have no voice and no seat at the table we fund.

How do we as NR hunters get/find/form an entity to advocate for us.

Be kind and be constructive in responses, temper tantrums don't help

 

[danhuntingmi]

I have tried to find an organization that would speak for the NR hunters who mostly make up the voices here. I could NOT find a single organization (RMEF, Safari Club or BCHA) that would question or raise issue with the established states sovereign right to manage the animals and the methods of issuing tags and addressing the costs of tags. The cost of NR tags vs residents, the ratios are absurd.
The consistent issues from year to year appear to be:
1. Point creep
2. Tag costs
3. Allocation of tags for Residents vs NR
Other issues exist such as game management plans, resource allocations including biologists and LE.

States consider PP and Special tags optional, as many said if you don't like the fees don't apply/hunt. Currently, as a NR I/we have no voice and no seat at the table we fund.

How do we as NR hunters get/find/form an entity to advocate for us.

Be kind and be constructive in responses, temper tantrums don't help

I think the question is what is the solution? We don't want tag prices to rise to allocate tags. We don't want to allocate tags with a preference points in a draw. We want to be able to plan our hunts not take them at random. We don't want the federal government to control hunting. We don't want the states benefiting their own residents. We don't see that our requests directly contradict each other. We don't have a coherent solution. We are angry that the problems don't get solved.

 

[BBob]

As to my opinion in AZ. Our G&F commission doesn’t really care much about what NR thinks or wants. You don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. There are so many of you that if one of you gets frustrated and quits there’s three more banging at the door trying to get in. Now the AZGFD might want as many of you that they can get but they answer to the commission. Good luck in trying to get the commission to listen to or act on any NR advocacy organization to get more tags for you.

 

[CorbLand]

I have tried to find an organization that would speak for the NR hunters who mostly make up the voices here. I could NOT find a single organization (RMEF, Safari Club or BCHA) that would question or raise issue with the established states sovereign right to manage the animals and the methods of issuing tags and addressing the costs of tags. The cost of NR tags vs residents, the ratios are absurd.
The consistent issues from year to year appear to be:
1. Point creep
2. Tag costs
3. Allocation of tags for Residents vs NR
Other issues exist such as game management plans, resource allocations including biologists and LE.

States consider PP and Special tags optional, as many said if you don't like the fees don't apply/hunt. Currently, as a NR I/we have no voice and no seat at the table we fund.

How do we as NR hunters get/find/form an entity to advocate for us.

Be kind and be constructive in responses, temper tantrums don't help

Either stop applying so states dont get your money and have to turn to its residents to cover the difference or start a 501C4 and hire lobbyists to lobby.

 

[180ls1]

I have tried to find an organization that would speak for the NR hunters who mostly make up the voices here. I could NOT find a single organization (RMEF, Safari Club or BCHA) that would question or raise issue with the established states sovereign right to manage the animals and the methods of issuing tags and addressing the costs of tags. The cost of NR tags vs residents, the ratios are absurd.
The consistent issues from year to year appear to be:
1. Point creep
2. Tag costs
3. Allocation of tags for Residents vs NR
Other issues exist such as game management plans, resource allocations including biologists and LE.

States consider PP and Special tags optional, as many said if you don't like the fees don't apply/hunt. Currently, as a NR I/we have no voice and no seat at the table we fund.

How do we as NR hunters get/find/form an entity to advocate for us.

Be kind and be constructive in responses, temper tantrums don't help

It's going to take someone like you to start one. There is a large "non-resident hunters" group on facebook that may be helpful.

 

[BBob]

I think the question is what is the solution?

IMO there isn’t any sort of real solution. There are way too many hunters Res and NR included that want to hunt out west. There aren’t enough tags to go around anymore regardless what you do with the point or draw systems.

 

[CorbLand]

I think the question is what is the solution? We don't want tag prices to rise to allocate tags. We don't want to allocate tags with a preference points in a draw. We want to be able to plan our hunts not take them at random. We don't want the federal government to control hunting. We don't want the states benefiting their own residents. We don't see that our requests directly contradict each other. We don't have a coherent solution. We are angry that the problems don't get solved.

The problem is there really isnt a solution that works. Deep down we all know that things arent likely to get better and we all really want to get ours before its gone. Thats why there are 8 different solutions to solve one problem. Most people are basing their solution off what will fit them and what they want the best.

~30 years ago states tried solving the same issues by implementing point systems and here we are, still talking about the same damn thing. They worked so well that 30 years later we still have the same problems. Its like cutting tags. That solution has worked so well, we have to do it every year for it to make things better.

 

[3forks]

I have tried to find an organization that would speak for the NR hunters who mostly make up the voices here. I could NOT find a single organization (RMEF, Safari Club or BCHA) that would question or raise issue with the established states sovereign right to manage the animals and the methods of issuing tags and addressing the costs of tags. The cost of NR tags vs residents, the ratios are absurd.
The consistent issues from year to year appear to be:
1. Point creep
2. Tag costs
3. Allocation of tags for Residents vs NR
Other issues exist such as game management plans, resource allocations including biologists and LE.

States consider PP and Special tags optional, as many said if you don't like the fees don't apply/hunt. Currently, as a NR I/we have no voice and no seat at the table we fund.

How do we as NR hunters get/find/form an entity to advocate for us.

Be kind and be constructive in responses, temper tantrums don't help

The organizations you listed recognize that states managing their wildlife/owning it is settled law, and they’re not going to waste money or alienate members trying to advocate for something that will not change.

How would you address resident vs non-resident tuition and enrollment at colleges and universities? The Federal government provides funding to state colleges and universities by way of federal student aid, grants, and contracts. Yet, these institutions have in-state and out of state tuition based on a student’s residency as well as enrollment caps also based on residency.

Because these institutions receive federal funds, should non-residents be provided an equal percentage of the total enrollment? A state’s universities are chartered to provide education to its resident students, but if we’re applying the same logic non-resident hunters are trying to apply to western state’s license allocation and fees, I suppose we should try to get those state schools federal funding ended or increase non-resident enrollment because they’re paying more than a resident, right?

 

[danhuntingmi]

My outlook is I also feel that, fundamentally, all Americans should have equal rights, on federal lands at least. But then we look to Alaska for what happens when the feds control hunting. Ironically, only Native Americans and locals (not just residents, locals) are allowed to hunt in some cases. They would like to do this more.

I get plenty of chances to get outdoors to hunt in my home state. I understand that if I want to hunt out west or AK my choices are limited and will become more so. If I/we cared that much, I'd/we'd move. These states have fewer economic opportunities and are near family for less people. We all make our life choices. We all live with them. I'm happy I had my chances to see other states. Our future generations might not get that chance. I'm not trying to be calloused but pretending reality isn't really true doesn't help anyone.

 

[CorbLand]

My outlook is I also feel that, fundamentally, all Americans should have equal rights, on federal lands at least. But then we look to Alaska for what happens when the feds control hunting. Ironically, only Native Americans and locals (not just residents, locals) are allowed to hunt in some cases. They would like to do this more.

I get plenty of chances to get outdoors to hunt in my home state. I understand that if I want to hunt out west or AK my choices are limited and will become more so. If I/we cared that much, I'd/we'd move. These states have fewer economic opportunities and are near family for less people. We all make our life choices. We all live with them. I'm happy I had my chances to see other states. Our future generations might not get that chance. I'm not trying to be calloused but pretending reality isn't really true doesn't help anyone.

Trust me buddy, you do not want to go down the road of the Feds managing wildlife. One look at the ESA and that should be evident to all. Let the Feds manage wildlife and it wouldnt matter what system they issued tags under, you wont be hunting.

 

[BBob]

My outlook is I also feel that, fundamentally, all Americans should have equal rights, on federal lands at least.

This has been argued in the courts multiple times and it just plain comes down to States vs Federal rights as laid out in the constitution. It flat is what it is and there’s nothing you can do to change that it’s the states wildlife regardless of what land the wildlife reside upon. Again good luck barking up that tree.

Edit: I suppose you could attempt to lobby congress to change those rights but again god luck with that.

 

[WTFJohn]

I have tried to find an organization that would speak for the NR hunters who mostly make up the voices here. I could NOT find a single organization (RMEF, Safari Club or BCHA) that would question or raise issue with the established states sovereign right to manage the animals and the methods of issuing tags and addressing the costs of tags. The cost of NR tags vs residents, the ratios are absurd.
The consistent issues from year to year appear to be:
1. Point creep
2. Tag costs
3. Allocation of tags for Residents vs NR
Other issues exist such as game management plans, resource allocations including biologists and LE.

States consider PP and Special tags optional, as many said if you don't like the fees don't apply/hunt. Currently, as a NR I/we have no voice and no seat at the table we fund.

How do we as NR hunters get/find/form an entity to advocate for us.

Be kind and be constructive in responses, temper tantrums don't help

Go ahead with this plan if you'd like to. I will advocate to cut NR tags to the legal minimums, and I know I would not be alone.

Once again, the entitlement of NR hunters is amusing. Thank you for coming out west for 5 days a season and saving our state budgets with one hunting tag and a few tanks of gas. We'd love for you to run our wildlife management from your living room in New Hampshire for your benefit too.

You clearly don't understand established law and the reasons behind why the system works the way it does, and you're more interested in "getting yours" than a properly managed resource.

 

[roadrunner]

I didnt say it was specific to Utah. I am using Utah as an example of the proposed solution not solving the problem like people think it will. Utah has a waiting period, guess what, people still arent drawing tags and are complaining about the same things.

Utah general season does not have a waiting period, yet people are drawing tags every 3-8 years (for ALW) and the herds are not any better. People are not any happier. Even with waiting that long, people still shoot the first deer they find.

You said that you liked the waiting period that Utah has and I am saying that the waiting period doesnt solve anything.

People dont hold out because it took them XX years to draw, they hold out because that upper quality animal exists. (Those upper quality animals generally exist in those units that take longer to draw) Make someone wait 15 years and tell them that the biggest deer in the unit is 150 and they will shoot the first decent 3-4 point that walks out. Make someone wait 5 years but tell them there is half dozen 200s and a dozen 180s. They will hold out.

If one of the most irritating things in your life is that people draw more tags than you do, can we have a phone call so we can talk about the choices you made? That sounds really nice to be honest.

Don't confuse anykind of a draw system or hunter allocation to "herd health". Not the same thing (see paragraph 2).

Thank you for pointing out that UT GS hunts don't have a waiting period, I had no idea...

Waiting periods mean the same people don't draw back to back years. Someone is always drawing a tag. Guess what - someone will draw the UT pronghorn hunt I had last year, they will shoot an age target buck in that unit all the while I sit out this year and next. That person who draws may or may not have any points. The person next year may only have 2 points or 10. But I'm not there to compete against them and draw the tag again. Kind of the point really...

I can't comment on why people hold out. If they do because of your thought process then whatever I guess.

I wouldn't expect you to understand the comment I made about multiple tags to one person in one state in one year. That's not even a reality in Ewe- tah.

 

[280ack]

Go ahead with this plan if you'd like to. I will advocate to cut NR tags to the legal minimums, and I know I would not be alone.

Once again, the entitlement of NR hunters is amusing. Thank you for coming out west for 5 days a season and saving our state budgets with one hunting tag and a few tanks of gas. We'd love for you to run our wildlife management from your living room in New Hampshire for your benefit too.

You clearly don't understand established law and the reasons behind why the system works the way it does, and you're more interested in "getting yours" than a properly managed resource.

Entitlement ? Its reasonable to want some voice in how my tax dollars are spent. Its also reasonable to be treated fairly (term to be defined) in regards to buying what state residents buy. I have no desire to "run" anyones state wildlife management plan. Nor do I think the feds should run the states wildlife management plans.

I assume you as an individual are benefitting as a result of high tag costs passed to the non resident? What % of your fish and game department yearly budget is funded by non-residents? What % of your state F&G budget is covered by the feds?

Established law? your are correct I don't, I'm not a lawyer. Your comments are not warranted in regards to my interests.

If all people had your views we would never change or attempt to change what clearly isn't working for all the vested parties.

Imagine a model around seafood, lobster, a federally managed resource, food source. Because they are migratory they are at times taken in state controlled water, thus are in the jurisdiction of state and fed entities. Lets institute a price per pound ratio that is determined by residency. Anyone living in the state where the lobster is caught is entitled to $11.00 a pound anyone who buys lobster who is a nonresident pays $264.00 per pound? Obviously silly! It would kill the industry. Its unreasonable.

So is paying 20X what you pay for a tag.

 

[Rich M]

The problem is that most people here are not trying to solve the problem of people not getting tags, they are trying to solve the problem of there not being the quality of animal they want, while trying to disguise it as trying to help people get tags.

Some people get lucky and draw every year. Some dont. Sometimes life sucks but it does go on.

I’m not trying to help folks get tags. Far from it.

I’m more for quality opportunities so more people can do 1 and done hunts. Guy wants a respectible critter and most are just shooting whatever.

If we made it a 5 yr wait between tag applications for successful folks, that would be 5 yrs w/o Jimmy blasting more forkies.

People dont drive 1/2 way across the country to hunt forkies. Noone says ima gonna go kill a baby deer. The come out wanting a big buck.

That brings this to point. In the past couple years folks went from 200 to 180 to 160 and we are now at 150 as a trophy muley buck.

The only way to fix this is to stop folks from shooting forks and small bucks. You dont get there by issuing more tags.

 

[CorbLand]

Don't confuse anykind of a draw system or hunter allocation to "herd health". Not the same thing (see paragraph 2).

Thank you for pointing out that UT GS hunts don't have a waiting period, I had no idea...

Waiting periods mean the same people don't draw back to back years. Someone is always drawing a tag. Guess what - someone will draw the UT pronghorn hunt I had last year, they will shoot an age target buck in that unit all the while I sit out this year and next. That person who draws may or may not have any points. The person next year may only have 2 points or 10. But I'm not there to compete against them and draw the tag again. Kind of the point really...

I can't comment on why people hold out. If they do because of your thought process then whatever I guess.

I wouldn't expect you to understand the comment I made about multiple tags to one person in one state in one year. That's not even a reality in Ewe- tah.

If state A and state B have the exact same problems but state A has a waiting period and state B doesnt why would you implement state A system to solve the problem in state B?

If you say we should do what XX state does because of YY and someone from XX state, that deals with it every year comes and says it wont fix what you think it will and your solution is to discount them due to living there then this conversation isnt worth having or continuing.

I dont live in Ewe-tah, I live in Utardia.

 

[CorbLand]

I’m not trying to help folks get tags. Far from it.

I’m more for quality opportunities so more people can do 1 and done hunts. Guy wants a respectible critter and most are just shooting whatever.

If we made it a 5 yr wait between tag applications for successful folks, that would be 5 yrs w/o Jimmy blasting more forkies.

People dont drive 1/2 way across the country to hunt forkies. Noone says ima gonna go kill a baby deer. The come out wanting a big buck.

That brings this to point. In the past couple years folks went from 200 to 180 to 160 and we are now at 150 as a trophy muley buck.

The only way to fix this is to stop folks from shooting forks and small bucks. You dont get there by issuing more tags.

I mean, that comment wasnt directed at you but you seem to have taken it a little personal.

People have been killing forkies for years. Go back 40 years and it was the guys shooting forkies that were ruining everything...yet we have still had good years and bad years of hunting. Weather dictates deer in the west, not hunters.

Maybe that has changed because 150-160 has always been a big buck in most general season type units. Maybe things have to adjust and change. People are still taking 180 plus bucks out of these same units. Half million dollar homes in the West use to be what you retired in, now its a starter home. 99 cent gas was expensive, now 3.00 is cheap. Shit changes.

Making people wait will not make them more selective. If a unit gives a 100 tags and people shoot 100 forkies, it doesnt matter if its the same 100 people every year or if you rotate through 10,000. I am not joking, residents here will wait 3-5 year to draw a tag and shoot a forkie fifteen minutes into opening morning. That waiting period is already happening and its not changing peoples choices. This thinking is flawed.

At least your honest enough to admit that all you want is your one and done big buck and **** everyone else to make sure you get it. The west already has units set up and managed for people that want that one and done. You can apply for those and then you dont have to worry about driving that far for a forkie.

 

[WTFJohn]

Entitlement ? Its reasonable to want some voice in how my tax dollars are spent. Its also reasonable to be treated fairly (term to be defined) in regards to buying what state residents buy. I have no desire to "run" anyones state wildlife management plan. Nor do I think the feds should run the states wildlife management plans.

I assume you as an individual are benefitting as a result of high tag costs passed to the non resident? What % of your fish and game department yearly budget is funded by non-residents? What % of your state F&G budget is covered by the feds?

Established law? your are correct I don't, I'm not a lawyer. Your comments are not warranted in regards to my interests.

If all people had your views we would never change or attempt to change what clearly isn't working for all the vested parties.

Imagine a model around seafood, lobster, a federally managed resource, food source. Because they are migratory they are at times taken in state controlled water, thus are in the jurisdiction of state and fed entities. Lets institute a price per pound ratio that is determined by residency. Anyone living in the state where the lobster is caught is entitled to $11.00 a pound anyone who buys lobster who is a nonresident pays $264.00 per pound? Obviously silly! It would kill the industry. Its unreasonable.

So is paying 20X what you pay for a tag.

Your tax dollars aren't going to state wildlife management, other than whatever you pay into PR/DJ funds which are split across all the states.

Your tag dollars (that you willingly paid) bought you a tag for a single species during a single season, nothing more. Acting like it makes you a "vested party" is entitlement. If you want a seat at the table, step 1 is being a resident and paying our taxes and living here year-round, not just when you're here on your hunting 'vacation'.

If the system worked the way you want it to, there would be almost zero hunting opportunities for residents especially in states like WY where tag numbers are kept limited to attempt to preserve the quality of the hunt and the state hunting population is easily dwarfed by the nationwide number of NR hunters.

Your lobster argument falls flat, plenty of states (Florida for instance) have resident-only harvest for certain species of fish and crustaceans. Because lo and behold, the resource won't allow for higher take; therefore residents should have priority.

Once again, you need to learn why the system is set up the way it is. Your argument fails on almost every point.

I am in elk/deer/bear/lion/antelope/moose country literally the moment I walk out my door, and spend almost all day every day outside in it. I can tell when numbers are up or down, when animals are migrating through, and when hunting pressure is too much. I speak those concerns to local CPW, attend round table meetings, and more. Lately it's been advocating for limiting NR because the pressure in some areas has become too much to bear especially after bad winterkill in 22-23.

But you can tell from New Hampshire that the tag numbers aren't right and we definitely can support more take from the resource.

 

[Jethro]

I would not be in favor of weakening a states right to govern itself just so I might get a hunting license. I would not join such an organization. Not that it matters. A national organization who's mission statement pits it's individual member's desires against each other would be doomed for failure. It is the reason the organizations we have currently don't push NR/Res issues as their agenda. Organizational suicide.

 

[CorbLand]

Your tax dollars aren't going to state wildlife management, other than whatever you pay into PR/DJ funds which are split across all the states.

Your tag dollars (that you willingly paid) bought you a tag for a single species during a single season, nothing more. Acting like it makes you a "vested party" is entitlement. If you want a seat at the table, step 1 is being a resident and paying our taxes and living here year-round, not just when you're here on your hunting 'vacation'.

If the system worked the way you want it to, there would be almost zero hunting opportunities for residents especially in states like WY where tag numbers are kept limited to attempt to preserve the quality of the hunt and the state hunting population is easily dwarfed by the nationwide number of NR hunters.

Your lobster argument falls flat, plenty of states (Florida for instance) have resident-only harvest for certain species of fish and crustaceans. Because lo and behold, the resource won't allow for higher take; therefore residents should have priority.

Once again, you need to learn why the system is set up the way it is. Your argument fails on almost every point.

I am in elk/deer/bear/lion/antelope/moose country literally the moment I walk out my door, and spend almost all day every day outside in it. I can tell when numbers are up or down, when animals are migrating through, and when hunting pressure is too much. I speak those concerns to local CPW, attend round table meetings, and more. Lately it's been advocating for limiting NR because the pressure in some areas has become too much to bear especially after bad winterkill in 22-23.

But you can tell from New Hampshire that the tag numbers aren't right and we definitely can support more take from the resource.

To be fair, Feds do provide grants and other funding that does help with wildlife and its management but its not significant in most budgets.

Anyone that thinks it would be better under Federal control or giving them even a sliver of ability to manage wildlife is very very mistaken. Like I said, take what has happened with the ESA with wolves and grizzlys. Now think of what they could do with elk, deer and everything else we hunt. Feds take over hunting, and you will find me on a golf course.