We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[Jason Snyder]

Can you elaborate on this? Don't get me wrong I prefer no points. Btw you are missed on the other site.

I talked to someone much better at math than I. In a high demand unit you aren’t clearing out applicants fast enough, and when you factor in new applicants every year the total pool actually dilutes your odds more than a straight one app pool. It seems counterintuitive, but in talking to him it seemed correct. I believe Randy has also said the same thing himself IIRC.

Hope you and your family are well.

 

[wapitibob]

reality check

 

[Nick87]

I talked to someone much better at math than I. In a high demand unit you aren’t clearing out applicants fast enough, and when you factor in new applicants every year the total pool actually dilutes your odds more than a straight one app pool. It seems counterintuitive, but in talking to him it seemed correct. I believe Randy has also said the same thing himself IIRC.

Hope you and your family are well.

That's interesting. I woukd have not thought of it that way. I hope you and yours are doing well also.

 

[RyanT26]

reality check

I don’t care that he doesn’t care…….so there!
We need to shoot for 1200 to 1400 emails to this gentleman next time.

 

[5MilesBack]

Points are not the problem. Too many people are the problem. It’s too easy to apply.

I’ve said this before, it’s a simple fix, front all tag and license money at the time of application and no credit cards. Just like anything else in life, you shouldn’t apply with money you don’t have. Draw odds would dramatically improve instantly.

It did get much worse when CPW did away with fronting the money when applying. But even if everyone had to front the money, we still have too many people applying these days....and that's the problem, not the point system.

I've been a lifelong resident in CO and have drawn a boatload of tags with points, and continue to do so. The current process isn't a problem, it works rather well. The problem as stated above is too much demand now, which just makes you wait longer for a tag......or you choose a tag that takes less points. The system still works the way it's supposed to.

However, one thing I saw this year that I've never really looked at before.....was the number of "hybrid draw" tags that they issue. That alone certainly hasn't helped point creep and has made it much worse for those top tier tags.

 

[Andyram_18]

Use or lose seems to be the best option. People need to put in for tags every other year or such or they lose their points! Guys will just apply for premium hunts that they wont draw. Another comment in this thread was made that usually point system reform comes from NR in a state they hunt. So ill refer it to my State.
I live in a state where we use a bonus point system for LE tags. So there is a random element to it. I always love the idea of having a change at applying; but it does cause me to swing for the fences until im ready to burn points (I burn at a relatively low level). I apply every year, because there is a chance of me drawing. I just manipulate which units I apply for so that I wont draw. So if you take Colorado for example; I would just apply every year for lofty premium a unit that I cannot draw; then build a point each year until I burn my points on a lesser tier unit.

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The reason the Montana 3 point cap and use or lose principle works is because its for general units only! For limited quotes it wont work as well; because you will just keep applying for top tier units until you draw or decide to burnout on a lower tier unit. It does seem that the only fair way is a totally random draw. No bonus or preference points

 

[Andyram_18]

We have a hybrid system if you look at the west collectively! Are you taking advantage of it? We have purely random, no point states. We have bonus point states. And we have preference point states. There’s value in the combined approach. Use it to your advantage.

I’ve been at this for several decades. I have those 20+ points in multiple states. That said, some of the best and most frequent tags I’ve drawn have been in random states. Take advantage of all the various systems and you might be surprised what happens.

Wow, if only people listened to the actual messages out there; they'd realize how true this is. One size fits all is a scary prop.

 

[Rifleman86]

Use or lose seems to be the best option. People need to put in for tags every other year or such or they lose their points! Guys will just apply for premium hunts that they wont draw. Another comment in this thread was made that usually point system reform comes from NR in a state they hunt. So ill refer it to my State.
I live in a state where we use a bonus point system for LE tags. So there is a random element to it. I always love the idea of having a change at applying; but it does cause me to swing for the fences until im ready to burn points (I burn at a relatively low level). I apply every year, because there is a chance of me drawing. I just manipulate which units I apply for so that I wont draw. So if you take Colorado for example; I would just apply every year for lofty premium a unit that I cannot draw; then build a point each year until I burn my points on a lesser tier unit.

---

The reason the Montana 3 point cap and use or lose principle works is because its for general units only! For limited quotes it wont work as well; because you will just keep applying for top tier units until you draw or decide to burnout on a lower tier unit. It does seem that the only fair way is a totally random draw. No bonus or preference points

Trust me I do see the flaw in people flooding high point units in order to not draw if “apply or lose your points” gets implemented. Might be better to apply it only to general tags somehow.

Seeing the fact that a max point + apply or lose your points was working to keep creep under control in Montana is was spawned this thread. I like being able to plan hunting there more or less every other year. I wish more states were a bit more reliable in that. I’m not asking for more tag allocation, just find a better way of doing it without screwing over residents or the states.

The real issue is the guys buying points for 15 years then suddenly dumping them on low point tags or general tags. I don’t blame them in the least, but it definitely skews the numbers. It’s the system we were given.

I wonder if a better solution than “apply or lose your points” is maxing preference points at a lower level for general tags and or “low” demand units. Let’s say, make it max of 3 PP for certain regions, 5 for low demand units, 10 for mid tier units, etc. You could apply for a general tag with 10 points, but you would only go into the draw with 3.

That might incentivize fewer people from dumping points on general tags and help the guys who care more about hunting every few years vs the once in a lifetime type guys. Nothing wrong with waiting in line 20 years for your dream hunt, but right now it sucks to be a guy that is completely satisfied with a general tag every few years.

 

[wytx]

I don’t care that he doesn’t care…….so there!
We need to shoot for 1200 to 1400 emails to this gentleman next time.

I can only imagine what they would do about all those emails, "nothing" comes to mind.

 

[TVW]

TLDR the whole thread but....

I can't really get behind losing your points if you don't put in for a hunt every year.

So you're saying that unless I can prioritize vacation from work, leaving the family, $$$ for the trip etc. etc. to hunt Wyoming every year that I shouldn't be able to buy points?

Didn't catch the location but something tells me OP isn't a resident of a Western State.....

 

[CorbLand]

The system in Utah is a good compromise. Half the tags go into a random draw. My wife just drew a Henry's tag with 3 points. Three years ago I drew it with 12 points and she drew an LE elk tag with 9 points. It rewards a few top point holders with a tag and everyone else gets a chance. I honestly don't think straight random is the best option. You could literally never draw while supporting the departments budget for years. I think there should be some reward for time in the system.

The same can be said for any point system. Thats why its called applying for hunts.

There is over a 100 years worth of point holders for elk in Utah. The only chance anyone under the age of 30 has at drawing a LE elk tag is in the random. I would rather take pure random, and double my chances.

 

[MattB]

reality check

That is exactly the clip that comes to mind every time a read a thread like this.

Want reform? The first step is moving to and establishing residency in the state whose point system you want reformed. Full stop.

Absent a willingness to do that, quit complaining.

 

[Rifleman86]

TLDR the whole thread but....

I can't really get behind losing your points if you don't put in for a hunt every year.

So you're saying that unless I can prioritize vacation from work, leaving the family, $$$ for the trip etc. etc. to hunt Wyoming every year that I shouldn't be able to buy points?

Didn't catch the location but something tells me OP isn't a resident of a Western State.....

If you are a resident, why does it matter to you? Most outfitters want repeat clientele, and most nonresidents would like a better way to predict with some sense of regularity when they will be able to hunt “low demand” General tags. There’s gotta be a mutually beneficial solution there somewhere without necessarily increasing NR allocation (which is what they just did in WY along with the price increase, and it didn’t make a dent)

Never claimed “apply or lose your points” was a perfect solution to that, but it’s a solution. Ideally, I’d want the “tag of a lifetime” guy to keep his place in line without jumping ahead of the “general tag every few years” guy.

 

[TVW]

If you are a resident, why does it matter to you? Most outfitters want repeat clientele, and most nonresidents would like a better way to predict with some sense of regularity when they will be able to hunt “low demand” General tags. There’s gotta be a mutually beneficial solution there somewhere without necessarily increasing NR allocation (which is what they just did in WY along with the price increase, and it didn’t make a dent)

Never claimed “apply or lose your points” was a perfect solution to that, but it’s a solution. Ideally, I’d want the “tag of a lifetime” guy to keep his place in line without jumping ahead of the “general tag every few years” guy.

I'm a resident of Idaho, we have good hunting so I don't need to hunt in other Western states every year.

However, I do enjoy going to Wyoming to Antelope hunt every few years. Thus I buy preference points and when I/we have enough for the Unit we want, we enter the draw and hopefully get our tag to go that year.

I don't want to, nor can I make it a priority to potentially Antelope hunt in Wyoming every year so putting in for a tag every year just to be eligible for preference points would suck/not make sense.

 

[Rifleman86]

I'm a resident of Idaho, we have good hunting so I don't need to hunt in other Western states every year.

However, I do enjoy going to Wyoming to Antelope hunt every few years. Thus I buy preference points and when I/we have enough for the Unit we want, we enter the draw and hopefully get our tag to go that year.

I don't want to, nor can I make it a priority to potentially Antelope hunt in Wyoming every year so putting in for a tag every year just to be eligible for preference points would suck/not make sense.

Trust me I get it, and I’m in the same boat with a few species and states. I’ve got my glory tags in mind that I don’t plan on burning anytime soon and would be honestly screwed if “apply or lose your points got implemented.”

What is frustrating is seeing general units jump by almost a point every year. I don’t believe it’s purely a demand issue, rather a system issue. General hunts are still general hunts, even in WY.

Making general tags “apply every year or lose your points, max of 3” and leave all LE tags the same would be a better way to run it. Who knows. I at least like that idea better than massive price increases or more outfitter only nonresident allocation.

 

[Rifleman86]

That is exactly the clip that comes to mind every time a read a thread like this.

Want reform? The first step is moving to and establishing residency in the state whose point system you want reformed. Full stop.

Absent a willingness to do that, quit complaining.

Residents when nonresidents want to discuss pretty much anything on rokslide be like…

 

[jmez]

You can buy a general tag at a gas station every year if you move to WY.

Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2023 using Tapatalk

 

[wytx]

Just take the PPs if any license is drawn, not doe/fawn or maybe reduced price cow elk licenses but any choice or leftover draw for bull or buck licenses.
No reason to let folks keep them on second and third choice draws, same for leftover draws.
We're not going to suddenly grow more elk or deer, pronghorn too, to meet the demand out there now much less in the future.
Your draw applicant pool keeps increasing but licenses numbers hardly do.

 

[wapitibob]

The same can be said for any point system. Thats why its called applying for hunts.

There is over a 100 years worth of point holders for elk in Utah. The only chance anyone under the age of 30 has at drawing a LE elk tag is in the random. I would rather take pure random, and double my chances.

Resident Utah odds show that's not true at all.

 

[CorbLand]

Resident Utah odds show that's not true at all.

How so?