We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[SDHNTR]

Agreed. Past 600 yds a lot of things can happen. The farthest I've shot an elk was 606 yds. Everything else has been under 500.

I only shoot when I have a tag in my pocket. I don't shoot recreationally.

I will shoot my rifle at a target 500 yds out for piece of mind a week or two before I go. 3 to 5 shots for muscle memory more than anything else and refamiliarize with holdover using a BDC.

A scope with external adjustable turrets made for that application would simply eliminate the holdover, and drift if applicable. I don't need to practice regularly. My anecdotal evidence applies to many out there, they just don't post on hunting forums...

And this is the problem.

 

[KurtR]

so now bow hunter’s once again whine and cry around so they get more of an opportunity.

 

[Rifleman86]

Double the number of applicants at every point level and tell me how it's going to get better in a year or two.

These were the point only numbers from 2020.
View attachment 716685

That’s the problem, there are way too many points in the system.

If you go to “apply or lose your points” more people will apply, but I’d bet half the people on that list won’t and guess what? Next year they are back at zero. It’s the only way I can imagine getting some points out of the system that’s fair.

I’ve got Deer, Elk and Antelope points in CO, WY and MT. I buy points every year. There is no way I’m applying to every state for all 3 species if something like this got implemented. I couldn’t hunt more than two tags anyway.

In 2018 there were 23k nonresident elk applicants in WY with 7250 tags available. I don’t know how much those numbers have changed, and I believe there are now slightly more nonresident tags available with the new regions, but that averages out to drawing a tag every 3-4 years, more often for GEN and obviously less frequently for LE tags.

The problem with the current system is people or essentially “saving their place in line” by buying points for year after year for that “someday” hunt, and then apply for general tags with 8+ points or whatever. That screws over the guys who prefer to hunt every few years.

If I guy wants to wait 10-15 years for a premium LE that’s fine, but there has to be a way to force them to draw the tag or get out of the way when they finally have the points they need.

 

[JFK]

If I guy wants to wait 10-15 years for a premium LE that’s fine, but there has to be a way to force them to draw the tag or get out of the way when they finally have the points they need.

Not sure I follow. If a guy is collecting points for 10-15 years he’s not really in the way. He is sitting on the sidelines for that time, not applying and letting opportunity flow to others with less points. I agree that when someone applies for a gen tag and they have 10-15 points it kinda messes the odds up, but it’s ultimately them who lost in that scenario as they could have hunted 2-3 times instead of one.

I work with a guy like this. He has high points for several species in basically every western state. Work and family keep him from going now, but when he retires he will have a decade plus of LE dream hunts. Not sure I fault him or think that me trying to hunt general units every few years is better than his approach.

Lastly, I’m convinced there are guys who buy points who will never use them. It’s like the old car in the garage that someone swears they are going to fix up for 20 years and never does. They enjoy the idea of it, but never make it happen.

 

[Rifleman86]

Not sure I follow. If a guy is collecting points for 10-15 years he’s not really in the way. He is sitting on the sidelines for that time, not applying and letting opportunity flow to others with less points. I agree that when someone applies for a gen tag and they have 10-15 points it kinda messes the odds up, but it’s ultimately them who lost in that scenario as they could have hunted 2-3 times instead of one.

I work with a guy like this. He has high points for several species in basically every western state. Work and family keep him from going now, but when he retires he will have a decade plus of LE dream hunts. Not sure I fault him or think that me trying to hunt general units every few years is better than his approach.

Lastly, I’m convinced there are guys who buy points who will never use them. It’s like the old car in the garage that someone swears they are going to fix up for 20 years and never does. They enjoy the idea of it, but never make it happen.

There are winners and losers in every scenario. Obviously if you never apply, you lose. The guys that are sitting on 15-20 years of points and got in the game early are obviously the winners when they apply. Many of them are finally and it’s causing a lot of the creep we are seeing.

But when you sell more points than you have applicants every year, creep is sort of a mathematical inevitability. There are always guys that are too busy and just buy points for decades for “someday” then finally jump in 10-15 years down the road. While I can’t blame them, that strategy is the problem, because when they finally do jump in it causes creep when they apply for traditionally lower point units. It’s not their fault, but rather the system that allows it.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

they should make selling pref. points amongst others okay. I would happily get my name out of the hat and sell mine to the highest bidder. Apparently me being in, is part of the problem... I never knew.

If you forced my hand in an "apply or zero out" I'd pick an obscure unit that takes decades to draw and apply knowing I wouldn't be drawing so not really much different than now just buyiing pts in the states that allow it. Unless I actually drew the tag, then its a win/win.

 

[RyanT26]

But for the average guy that shoots a box of ammo a year that has a scope they can EASILY dial to 852 yds after accurately ranging it is....

852 is as easy as dial and pull trigger?

 

[JFK]

they should make selling pref. points amongst others okay. I would happily get my name out of the hat and sell mine to the highest bidder. Apparently me being in, is part of the problem... I never knew.

Nah. You’d create a market place for points. People would put their entire family in with the intent of selling them. It would be a complete disaster with point creep accelerating exponentially.

It would never happen, but a point buy back from the game agency would be worthwhile.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

Nah. You’d create a market place for points. People would put their entire family in with the intent of selling them. It would be a complete disaster with point creep accelerating exponentially.

It would never happen, but a point buy back from the game agency would be worthwhile.

if they paid interest on it for the 10+ years I've been in I'd listen.

 

[JFK]

if they paid interest on it for the 10+ years I've been in I'd listen.

It ain’t going to happen. And if it did, it would likely be pennys on the dollar.

Why don’t you use them and go hunt? Honest question.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

^^^^i will at some point just dreaming is all..... the next two, potentially 3 years I'm committed to other hunts so I'll keep building points that everyone seems to despise. But if I knew then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have gotten into this as deep as I am. betwenn the FreshTracks+, GoHunt, MeatEater, BRO, general d-baggery I'm disgusted enough with what they've done to state draws; if I could sell my points to the highest payer I would in a heartbeat.

contrary to some on here and in the hunting community, my sun doesn't rise and fall with big game hunting. And contrary to what the celebrity hunters think, they've done far more harm then good.

 

[Mojave]

If people were people were just buying points and sitting on them, there wouldn’t be point creep… point creep only occurs when more people with points apply.

That is only half of it. Supply and demand is more important.

 

[xcskier_hunter]

There are winners and losers in every scenario. Obviously if you never apply, you lose. The guys that are sitting on 15-20 years of points and got in the game early are obviously the winners when they apply. Many of them are finally and it’s causing a lot of the creep we are seeing.

But when you sell more points than you have applicants every year, creep is sort of a mathematical inevitability. There are always guys that are too busy and just buy points for decades for “someday” then finally jump in 10-15 years down the road. While I can’t blame them, that strategy is the problem, because when they finally do jump in it causes creep when they apply for traditionally lower point units. It’s not their fault, but rather the system that allows it.

The point creep we are seeing is caused by static (or in many cases dwindling) supply and increased demand, or a system that yet to reach an initial equilibrium. If there is 1 tag available and 10 hunters that want it in a preference point system then everyone could expect to get that tag once every 10 years and the preference points required would never get above 10. Point creep of +1 will occur for the initial 10 years but after that it should stabilize. Any point creep past 10 points (outside of someone having a conflict the year they are expected to draw and delaying a year, which in any case offers a shorter wait for the next hunter in line and average point level over time remains constant) is the result of the number of people vying for that tag increasing or tags being reduced.

People waiting in line longer than necessary will always provide an opportunity for someone with fewer points, lowering point creep in a system at equilibrium for that year. The problem with many LE units is that they have not reached an initial equilibrium yet, or the demand for the tags relative to their availability continues to increase. Another effect that mid tier units see is people chasing the top units giving up, but in the long term that effect will be reflected by the equilibrium point of the top tier units.

 

[Rifleman86]

The point creep we are seeing is caused by static (or in many cases dwindling) supply and increased demand, or a system that yet to reach an initial equilibrium. If there is 1 tag available and 10 hunters that want it in a preference point system then everyone could expect to get that tag once every 10 years and the preference points required would never get above 10. Point creep of +1 will occur for the initial 10 years but after that it should stabilize. Any point creep past 10 points (outside of someone having a conflict the year they are expected to draw and delaying a year, which in any case offers a shorter wait for the next hunter in line and average point level over time remains constant) is the result of the number of people vying for that tag increasing or tags being reduced.

People waiting in line longer than necessary will always provide an opportunity for someone with fewer points, lowering point creep in a system at equilibrium for that year. The problem with many LE units is that they have not reached an initial equilibrium yet, or the demand for the tags relative to their availability continues to increase. Another effect that mid tier units see is people chasing the top units giving up, but in the long term that effect will be reflected by the equilibrium point of the top tier units.

You aren’t wrong that eventually things will stabilize, but the problem is there is very little “cost” to buy points and get in the game. That increases demand and more points in the system.

You make someone front the cost of the tag for 5 months to maybe draw every +3 years, and only the really serious applicants are gonna do that year after year.

I’d love to throw the whole thing out and go random, but I know that would never fly. I’d like to find a way to reduce the insane number of points out there in a way that is fair. The only way I see that happening is to start making people apply every year. You wouldn’t necessarily have to front the money, but if you drew the tag and turned it down you go to the back of the line with 0 points and it gets offered to the next highest point holder who applied.

 

[roadrunner]

852 is as easy as dial and pull trigger?

Never said it was.

Go back and reread my post in context to the quote above it and then come back and ask again...

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Go back and reread my post in context to the quote above it and then come back and ask again...

So its easy for the average guy to dial and pull the trigger at 852?

I'd assume it was also pretty easy for Fred in 1960 with his "gun zeroed at 300yds" to just holdover it's back at 852......same/same.

 

[roadrunner]

So its easy for the average guy to dial and pull the trigger at 852?

I'd assume it was also pretty easy for Fred in 1960 with his "gun zeroed at 300yds" to just holdover it's back at 852......same/same.

Go back and reread my post in context.

Hint: you have to read the piece of the post above it that I quoted...

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Go back and reread my post in context.

Hint: you have to read the piece of the post above it that I quoted...

Hint. I did. Have you?

 

[roadrunner]

Hint. I did. Have you?

Hunting with scopes is not a new concept.

For the average Joe that doesn't shoot very much, goes out and buys a scope with turrets specifically made for that, sets it to 852 yds, it is a new concept.

Does that help? I can keep explaining it to you, but I cannot understand it for you...

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Hunting with scopes is not a new concept.

For the average Joe that doesn't shoot very much, goes out and buys a scope with turrets specifically made for that, sets it to 852 yds, it is a new concept.

Does that help? I can keep explaining it to you, but I cannot understand it for you...

I get you believe that's some earth shattering revelation, however the condescending tone really isn't necessary.