We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[Traveler]

Even today, I bet external turrets are the minority.
You can use a Garmin xero on your bows, right?

I would bet a large amount of money the relative improvement in success rates from open sight rifle to scoped rifle is greater than single pin compound bow to garmin zero compound bow.

FWIW - the xero looks like one of those “cool” improvements that ends up being more of a distraction than an advantage.

 

[RyanT26]

I would bet a large amount of money the relative improvement in success rates from open sight rifle to scoped rifle is greater than single pin compound bow to garmin zero compound bow.

FWIW - the xero looks like one of those “cool” improvements that ends up being more of a distraction than an advantage.

How long have scoped rifles been allowed to be in use?
Is there any state in the last 50 years they had an open site requirement on their rifles?
The point I’m trying to make is hunting with scoped rifles is not a new concept.

 

[xcskier_hunter]

I would bet a large amount of money the relative improvement is success rates from open sight rifle to scoped rifle is greater than single pin compound bow to garmin zero compound bow.

FWIW - the xero looks like one of those “cool” improvements that ends up being more of a distraction than an advantage.

You are probably correct about the Garmin Xero in its current form, but there is clearly significant room for improvement that I'm sure will make it a clear advantage. Some of these technologies need to be looked at in terms how a perfected version down the road will perform.

 

[Traveler]

How long have scoped rifles been allowed to be in use?
Is there any state in the last 50 years they had an open site requirement on their rifles?
The point I’m trying to make is hunting with scoped rifles is not a new concept.

I agree with your point, scoped rifles are not a new concept.

My point is two fold. One is that rifle hunting is inherently more lethal, leading to higher harvest numbers.

The second is that the ability to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of rifle hunting has more room for improvement and is higher than that of archery hunting. The same way improving the performance of a race car inherently leads to higher performance gains than a racing bicycle.

 

[JFK]

The second is that the ability to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of rifle hunting has more room for improvement and is higher than that of archery hunting. The same way improving the performance of a race car inherently leads to higher performance gains than a racing bicycle.

Rifles are damn near perfect now days. By a large margin, the limiting factor in their effectiveness is a person’s proficiency. Thankfully you can’t buy that.

 

[SDHNTR]

How long have scoped rifles been allowed to be in use?
Is there any state in the last 50 years they had an open site requirement on their rifles?
The point I’m trying to make is hunting with scoped rifles is not a new concept.

You’re right. It’s not the scope alone. It’s the turret and reticle and the corresponding ballistic calculations.

 

[SDHNTR]

Rifles are damn near perfect now days. By a large margin, the limiting factor in their effectiveness is a person’s proficiency. Thankfully you can’t buy that.

Gunwerks and several others sure think you can.

 

[JFK]

Gunwerks and several others sure think you can.

They probably don’t believe it if they were being honest, but they sure have no problem selling rifles to people who think that.

 

[MattB]

Even today, I bet external turrets are the minority.
You can use a Garmin xero on your bows, right?

A minority of archers use Garmin xero’s but any rifle hunter can buy a scope with external turrets. See how that works?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

You can use a Garmin xero on your bows, right?

Not in a good chunk of western states, which is fine by me. If the choice is between A) more restrictions on weapons technology = reduced harvest rate = higher tag quotas vs. B) fewer weapons restrictions = increased harvest rate = lower tag quotas, I'll take option A every day. I know it's not quite that simple, but the logic holds to a degree. I would happily trade my compound bow for a recurve if it would help me get elk tags more often.

 

[Andrew12gauge]

I know some will say nothing will stop guys from still slinging lead 800+ yards with a 4x scope but I’m of the belief that most hunters are ethical humans and would keep it reasonable.

If the long range hunting craze of the past 10+ years has taught me anything, they are not. There is zero reason in spite of how good technology has gotten that anyone needs to shoot shots greater than 400 yards. It’s called hunting not target practice


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[Rifleman86]

If the long range hunting craze of the past 10+ years has taught me anything, they are not. There is zero reason in spite of how good technology has gotten that anyone needs to shoot shots greater than 400 yards. It’s called hunting not target practice


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People have been taking shots an animals they shouldn’t have probably taken since we were using spears. It’s always happened and it’s always gonna continue to happen.

As far as restricting scope power or ability to dial for distance, talk about the “land of make believe.”

I’m willing to bet money a good portion of the fact hunting has gotten way safer over the past 50 years is way more people using scopes now than decades ago.

I also guarantee bow hunters wound far more animals they don’t recover than the rifle crowd, and I say that as a bow hunter.

 

[KurtR]

We’ve arrived at that point, we do need some sensible equipment restrictions, at least for rifle seasons.

Haha they can’t even enforce the rules they have now. Sounds like sensible gun control crowd. I will give my turrets up when bow hunters give up compounds or month long seasons.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Should be a seperate thread but I am also all for weapons restrictions to increase tag opportunity.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

I'm a little confused. We now have too many hunters? I thought R3 was needed because there was only like 10 or 12 hunters left?

Now there's too many hunters, so much so that we need to ban rifle mounted optics? Huh, learn something new ever day. Good thing nobody ever shot long range with aperture sights and falling block singke shot rifles.

 

[roadrunner]

The point I’m trying to make is hunting with scoped rifles is not a new concept.

But for the average guy that shoots a box of ammo a year that has a scope they can EASILY dial to 852 yds after accurately ranging it is....

Edit: for the two confused in the reaction box below, it is a new concept for the avg Joe to use a modern scope with adjustable turrets designed specifically for that use making it easier to dial to 852 yds instead removing the protective cap and adjusting.

 

[Rifleman86]

But for the average guy that shoots a box of ammo a year that has a scope they can EASILY dial to 852 yds after accurately ranging it is....

If someone isn’t practicing regularly, understanding wind calls and environmental variables, they are going to miss/wound at 852 yards. Even if they are practicing regularly, accounting for those variables in a dynamic field environment can be extremely difficult.

I’m not saying hunters haven’t become more efficient at range, but range finders are probably the biggest factor in doing so, and that has increased efficiency amongst both gun and bow hunters. There is an even lower likelihood we’re putting those back in Pandora’s box vs scopes with turrets.

I shoot long range a bunch, and I won’t take a shot past 500-600 yards at most, and that’s under ideal conditions. Past about 600 yards is really where stuff gets funky with wind, mirage, temp/altitude, etc.

Restricting scopes would probably just result in more wounded critters IMO.

Restricting weapons mounted range finders, wind meters, and “tracking point” type technology should be what happens. Most states already have.

Once things get more or less universally used like range finders and turret equipped scopes are, nobody is going to accept giving up those tools.

 

[Fowl Play]

Probably should be its own conversation, but the Xero is the least of your concerns. You have scopes coming down the line that are going to be able to adjust for everything internally (besides maybe downrange wind calls -- and they might be able to figure that out eventually). Integrated rangefinder, altimeter, anemometer, onboard ballistics, etc. Sig is starting it, but it will improve.

I don't think limiting optic magnification on modern rifle cartridges is the right call. Should likely move to open sites (non electric/no magnification) and muzzleloaders, shotguns, or straight walled cartridges. Piggy back off the regulations of eastern states dealing with high number of hunters and trying to improve safety. I would get behind something like that, but I also archery hunt mostly for big game....

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

Probably should be its own conversation, but the Xero is the least of your concerns. You have scopes coming down the line that are going to be able to adjust for everything internally (besides maybe downrange wind calls -- and they might be able to figure that out eventually). Integrated rangefinder, altimeter, anemometer, onboard ballistics, etc. Sig is starting it, but it will improve.

I don't think limiting optic magnification on modern rifle cartridges is the right call. Should likely move to open sites (non electric/no magnification) and muzzleloaders, shotguns, or straight walled cartridges. Piggy back off the regulations of eastern states dealing with high number of hunters and trying to improve safety. I would get behind something like that, but I also archery hunt mostly for big game....

Ya maybe just rimfire only seasons. Or ban magnified optics and open sights.

No sights. Instinctive aiming like a trad bow.

 

[roadrunner]

If someone isn’t practicing regularly, understanding wind calls and environmental variables, they are going to miss/wound at 852 yards. Even if they are practicing regularly, accounting for those variables in a dynamic field environment can be extremely difficult.

I’m not saying hunters haven’t become more efficient at range, but range finders are probably the biggest factor in doing so, and that has increased efficiency amongst both gun and bow hunters. There is an even lower likelihood we’re putting those back in Pandora’s box vs scopes with turrets.

I shoot long range a bunch, and I won’t take a shot past 500-600 yards at most, and that’s under ideal conditions. Past about 600 yards is really where stuff gets funky with wind, mirage, temp/altitude, etc.

Restricting scopes would probably just result in more wounded critters IMO.

Restricting weapons mounted range finders, wind meters, and “tracking point” type technology should be what happens. Most states already have.

Once things get more or less universally used like range finders and turret equipped scopes are, nobody is going to accept giving up those tools.

Agreed. Past 600 yds a lot of things can happen. The farthest I've shot an elk was 606 yds. Everything else has been under 500.

I only shoot when I have a tag in my pocket. I don't shoot recreationally.

I will shoot my rifle at a target 500 yds out for piece of mind a week or two before I go. 3 to 5 shots for muscle memory more than anything else and refamiliarize with holdover using a BDC.

A scope with external adjustable turrets made for that application would simply eliminate the holdover, and drift if applicable. I don't need to practice regularly. My anecdotal evidence applies to many out there, they just don't post on hunting forums...