Unknown suppressors OG testing

[Q_Sertorius]

Great report! Only question is about the balance point. I thought I read earlier that because it is heavier, it doesn’t reduce the balance length compared to something like an Ultra 7 or Scythe. Since you’ve got all of them, it would be awesome to test!

My balance comparison is here:

Q’s Unknown Suppressors OG thread

Q’s Unknown Suppressors OG thread

I ordered my OG on June 1st. I was #1222. It arrived at my SOT on June 18. I picked it up this afternoon. I opted for the bead blasted finish. I think it looks great. Finish is very high quality. I also ordered the 1/2-28 thread adapter, tool, and cover. The rifle on which I eventually...

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[hereinaz]

Balance is one thing, maneuverability is another.

The OG does “feel” easier to swing… I think there is a reason, and it is where the weight is distributed.

If you have two rifles of relatively the same weight, they can have the same balance point, even though one is longer. The longer one can even weigh less or the same.

But, maneuvering them feels different because of where the weight is relative to the “pivot point” which is different than the balance point. They are different because we don’t maneuver rifles from the balance point, we maneuver them from the butt stock.

Weight that is further away from the butt takes more effort to move in the same arc. It also feels heavier.

It isn’t dramatic, but it’s just enough to be noticeable, without the ability to really distinguish because it is not that huge. You can notice.

 

[gtriple]

Balance is one thing, maneuverability is another.

The OG does “feel” easier to swing… I think there is a reason, and it is where the weight is distributed.

Ehhhhh, I disagree. I understand that it feels more maneuverable because it is shorter and easier to use in tight spaces. But what you wrote doesn’t really match up with basic physics.

If you have two rifles of relatively the same weight, they can have the same balance point, even though one is longer. The longer one can even weigh less or the same.

If you have 2 rifles of the exact same weight and the same components aside from the length of the barrel, then they will not have the same balance point. If you want them to have the same balance point, the one with the longer barrel would need to weigh less on the muzzle side of the balance point.

But, maneuvering them feels different because of where the weight is relative to the “pivot point” which is different than the balance point. They are different because we don’t maneuver rifles from the balance point, we maneuver them from the butt stock.

Your front hand, which is near or at the balance point, is more responsible for moving the rifle. Your other point of contact, your shoulder, would be the point of rotation. You don’t create the torque required to swing the rifle/shotgun from your shoulder, but rather from your front hand.

Weight that is further away from the butt takes more effort to move in the same arc. It also feels heavier.

Yes, but we are talking about 2 identical rifles, aside from the suppressor. If one suppressor is longer but lighter (Scythe) and the other is shorter but heavier (OG), then they may have the exact same balance point and exact same maneuverability (or torque required to swing the rifle) - assuming the lever arm changes proportional to the weight.

It isn’t dramatic, but it’s just enough to be noticeable, without the ability to really distinguish because it is not that huge. You can notice.

I agree, it’s not really a big deal for a rifle. It’s not like we are making swinging shots like shotguns. This was just a professional engineer splitting hairs.

All that being said, I’d take the shorter one regardless of if it doesn’t change the balance of the rifle. Saving 2” of overhead obstruction is a big deal.

 

[5811]

This picture from @Q_Sertorius post is pretty illustrative. The balance point is further forward on the OG and the length difference is 1.5"

That's like going from a 20" barrel to a 21.5" barrel, except the 21.5" barrel is lighter.

Though I'm not sure how the rifle is heavier with the scythe as he posted unless it's the cover.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

This picture from @Q_Sertorius post is pretty illustrative. The balance point is further forward on the OG and the length difference is 1.5"

That's like going from a 20" barrel to a 21.5" barrel, except the 21.5" barrel is lighter.

Though I'm not sure how the rifle is heavier with the scythe as he posted unless it's the cover.


View attachment 912362

I don’t remember the exact weight, but the Cole-Tac Metal Python cover is fairly thick. My comparison was a bit unfair because I didn’t have the US cover on the OG.


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“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[hereinaz]

Ehhhhh, I disagree. I understand that it feels more maneuverable because it is shorter and easier to use in tight spaces. But what you wrote doesn’t really match up with basic physics.


If you have 2 rifles of the exact same weight and the same components aside from the length of the barrel, then they will not have the same balance point. If you want them to have the same balance point, the one with the longer barrel would need to weigh less on the muzzle side of the balance point.


Your front hand, which is near or at the balance point, is more responsible for moving the rifle. Your other point of contact, your shoulder, would be the point of rotation. You don’t create the torque required to swing the rifle/shotgun from your shoulder, but rather from your front hand.


Yes, but we are talking about 2 identical rifles, aside from the suppressor. If one suppressor is longer but lighter (Scythe) and the other is shorter but heavier (OG), then they may have the exact same balance point and exact same maneuverability (or torque required to swing the rifle) - assuming the lever arm changes proportional to the weight.


I agree, it’s not really a big deal for a rifle. It’s not like we are making swinging shots like shotguns. This was just a professional engineer splitting hairs.

All that being said, I’d take the shorter one regardless of if it doesn’t change the balance of the rifle. Saving 2” of overhead obstruction is a big deal.

The point of rotation is the pivot point, so that is the material point for a swinging factor? No? After all, a longer lever means that a smaller weight/force can do more work. A lighter suppressor but further away means it takes more force to move it.

Help me understand why having more of the weight closer to both the point of rotation and connection point with the support hand wouldn’t make it feel different/faster to point?

Don’t the rules of inertia actually mean moving the object further away from the pivot point takes longer and thus more total force?

Total length of the firearm seems to be relevant to the feel of maneuvering, and I think it is far more complex movement than you engineered it as. In the end, it is minimal, but somehow I think our very complex brains can sense it.

I am going to have to try a blind test to see if a person can tell whether it is an OG or an Ultra 7 on the same rifle.

I know I would rather have to spin a single 45 pound weight than a bar weighing 45 pounds. The rules of inertia tell us that as the weight moves further away it becomes it takes more energy to move.

 

[5811]

I don’t remember the exact weight, but the Cole-Tac Metal Python cover is fairly thick. My comparison was a bit unfair because I didn’t have the US cover on the OG.


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But if that is true, and the scythe is then heavier and longer (relative to the barrel), how can the balance point be further back?

This balance point and handling stuff is confusing. Some guys want more weight further out for stability, some guys want light as possible, seems like I'm just not practiced enough to get it.

It's the 1.5 inch difference in length that sticks out to me.

 

[5811]

I am going to have to try a blind test to see if a person can tell whether it is an OG or an Ultra 7 on the same rifle.

I love this idea, Pepsi challenge the placebo out and see what people feel.

It is critical what order you do the test in. You can open yourself up to the magnetic wrist band mall kiosk test effect where people feel stronger after a warm up.

 

[Flymost]

The problem with that example is that to be fair you would have to hold the 45 lb weight roughly 3’ away from you.

 

[hereinaz]

I love this idea, Pepsi challenge the placebo out and see what people feel.

It is critical what order you do the test in. You can open yourself up to the magnetic wrist band mall kiosk test effect where people feel stronger after a warm up.

I have some identical Tikka I can put several suppressor and run several times.

I swear I can feel a difference, but who knows.

The problem with that example is that to be fair you would have to hold the 45 lb weight roughly 3’ away from you.

make it a 10 pound weight and a long ten pound bar, regardless physics says what it says…

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

 

[hereinaz]

Who knows how much is in the mind, and not reality? I swear I can feel a difference between the Ultra 7 and the OG. The suppressor weight is only 0.9 ounces different but the “levered” weight is 2.7 ounces.

I want to do the blindfold test now. I legitimately think it could be in the head. Obviously, these ounces aren’t gonna be anything significant, and this could be one of those things that will never be solved. Personally, I don’t sweat ounces so much.

For those interested:

Ultra 7 11.7 rifle levered weight 8 10.6
OG 10.8 rifle levered weight 8 7.9
DD 10 rifle levered weight 8 8.8

Levered weight was the rifle on the scale at the front ring with the butt touching/resting on the light as seen in pics.

Balance point was OG furthest rear, then DD, then Ultra 7 as seen with sharpie. Only separated by maybe half inch total.

 

[hereinaz]

View attachment 912430

So true,

I like puzzles though, so I get wound up in thought about stuff for curiosity sake. But, it comes out less and less at the range. I keep caring less and less as I see how little these things matter on target.

 

[solarshooter]

View attachment 912430

In your analogy, are the claims about balance the mouse turd, or the efforts to measure/verify those claims?

 

[wind gypsy]

View attachment 912430

Are the mouse and turd gigantic or did the pole vaulter get shrunk?

 

[solarshooter]

Regarding balance point and rifle handling feel with the two different cans, here is my assessment. For balance point aka center of gravity, what we are talking about is what is the change in moment (force * distance) due to the suppressor about some fixed reference point on the rifle. Here are some example calcs:

For the Scythe, which weighs ~9oz and is ~6" long with a CG ~3" in front of the muzzle, the moment about the bolt face on a 20" barrel is (9/16)*(20+3) = 12.94 ft-lbs.

For the OG, which weighs ~11oz and is 8" long with a CG at the muzzle, the moment about the bolt face on the same 20" barrel is (11/16)*(20) = 13.75 ft-lbs.

So between these two cans installed on the same rifle, I predict the OG will have a balance point (CG) closer to the muzzle.

When it comes to "handling feel" and "nimbleness" of the rifle, we are talking less about static CG and more about the moment of inertia of the system. Imagine the difference in picking up a 45lb plate and rotating it like a steering wheel, vs picking up a 45lb bar and spinning it like a baton. Both have the same weight and the same CG, but one has a much larger moment of inertia because more of the mass is distributed further away from the CG, and it takes a lot more rotational force to accelerate and decelerate that "further out" mass. In this case, the equation is mass * distance^2. Sample calcs using the same dimensions as above:

For the Scythe: (9/16)*(1/32.17)*((20+3)/12)^2 = 0.064 lbm-ft^2
For the OG: (11/16)*(1/32.17)*((20)/12)^2 = 0.059lbm-ft^2

So the OG has a lower moment of inertia installed on the gun, but will balance closer to the muzzle. This is a little counterintuitive but might be why we're getting some confusing/conflicting reports as people test these cans.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Regarding balance point and rifle handling feel with the two different cans, here is my assessment. For balance point aka center of gravity, what we are talking about is what is the change in moment (force * distance) due to the suppressor about some fixed reference point on the rifle. Here are some example calcs:

For the Scythe, which weighs ~9oz and is ~6" long with a CG ~3" in front of the muzzle, the moment about the bolt face on a 20" barrel is (9/16)*(20+3) = 12.94 ft-lbs.

For the OG, which weighs ~11oz and is 8" long with a CG at the muzzle, the moment about the bolt face on the same 20" barrel is (11/16)*(20) = 13.75 ft-lbs.

So between these two cans installed on the same rifle, I predict the OG will have a balance point (CG) closer to the muzzle.

When it comes to "handling feel" and "nimbleness" of the rifle, we are talking less about static CG and more about the moment of inertia of the system. Imagine the difference in picking up a 45lb plate and rotating it like a steering wheel, vs picking up a 45lb bar and spinning it like a baton. Both have the same weight and the same CG, but one has a much larger moment of inertia because more of the mass is distributed further away from the CG, and it takes a lot more rotational force to accelerate and decelerate that "further out" mass. In this case, the equation is mass * distance^2. Sample calcs using the same dimensions as above:

For the Scythe: (9/16)*(1/32.17)*((20+3)/12)^2 = 0.064 lbm-ft^2
For the OG: (11/16)*(1/32.17)*((20)/12)^2 = 0.059lbm-ft^2

So the OG has a lower moment of inertia installed on the gun, but will balance closer to the muzzle. This is a little counterintuitive but might be why we're getting some confusing/conflicting reports as people test these cans.

 

[HuntHarder]

 

[mtnwrunner]

Well, if you do the blind test and if someone asks you to put your hand in warm water.........don't do it.

Randy

 

[xrangerx]

Came home today! Hoping to hit the range in the next week or so