Listen to guides when loading for big game

[HuntHarder]

While @mxgsfmdpx, may have overstated the actual %, what he is trying to convey is accurate in my experience. Guides do not focus on the technical aspects of killing. A good guide, puts their client in a position to make a good clean kill. Most I have met, ( I used to guide as well), focus on getting to the shot opportunity and getting the meat out of the field.

It's 25/75, experienced outdoorsman vs. novice hunters they guide for. Most clients, disappoint on multiple fronts, whether it be shooting, packing, hiking, camping. Guides have a ton of valuable experience to share, technical bullet selection, just typically isn't one of them.

OP, you may have gotten a guide that did excel on the technical front. Those are the exception, not the norm in my experience.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Yeah I think a couple usual folks are getting hung up on the number example I used instead of focusing on the facts.

I used to guide as well and have met and conversed with dozens and dozens of other guides/grunts/outdoorsmen.

The point is, nearly all don’t take the time to really learn what cartridges and bullets do in animals and how they kill. They also don’t use the off season time to shoot and learn and experiment. They are busy scouting, prepping, taking time with family, good ones and continuing to network and build relationships with clients and other guides, etc.

Using “guides” as a whole for advice on cartridges and bullets is not good advice.

I can see what you're saying, the way it was stated it sounded like that was something pretty hard and fast on your part. Carry on.

 

[WVELK]

This is weak. You threw it out there. So tells us what these experts say.

Listen JFK69 - send me a private message and I will tell you all I know. The problem with these forums is some are not intelligent enough to know that fighting over which bullet is best, which gun manufacturer is best, which bow is best, which broadhead shoots the best, which animal is the hardest to hunt, etc. etc. is that it divides the hunting community. Do you know who that benefits? The anti hunters and those against the second amendment. Rather than telling me, someone who is likely on your side, that a post is weak give one of your three brain cells enough attention to try to figure out what you can do to protect hunting rights.

 

[jfk69]

Listen JFK69 - send me a private message and I will tell you all I know. The problem with these forums is some are not intelligent enough to know that fighting over which bullet is best, which gun manufacturer is best, which bow is best, which broadhead shoots the best, which animal is the hardest to hunt, etc. etc. is that it divides the hunting community. Do you know who that benefits? The anti hunters and those against the second amendment. Rather than telling me, someone who is likely on your side, that a post is weak give one of your three brain cells enough attention to try to figure out what you can do to protect hunting rights.

Lol. I doubt we’re going to find many anti hunters on Rokslide. Even my three brain cells are smart enough to realize that forums exist for the very reason to discuss things like this.

Hence the word forum.

The word "forum" originates from Latin, meaning "public place," "marketplace," or "open space". It was the name for the central public square in an ancient Roman city where commercial, political, and judicial activities took place. The term is also related to the Latin words for "outside" and "door," suggesting the idea of an enclosed, open-air space.

Modern meaning:
The word has evolved to describe any place or medium for public discussion and the open exchange of ideas, such as an online forum or a public meeting.

 

[voltage]

This year, my outfitter demanded I use a 30 caliber rifle for the “knock down power”. I would have preferred to take my 6.5 PRC that I love and shoot the best, but I obliged. I hit an elk high with my 300 PRC at 625 yards, and the elk ran away never to be seen again. It’s my fault, but sure wish that “knock down power” would have worked.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Wasn't it Elmer Keith that shot and killed a mule deer at 600 yards, one shot...with a short barreled 44 Special revolver? Must have been because he was a ballistics expert...but he was also a guide. Tell me more about bullet ballistics please. LOL.

 

[Chris in TN]

Listen JFK69 - send me a private message and I will tell you all I know. The problem with these forums is some are not intelligent enough to know that fighting over which bullet is best, which gun manufacturer is best, which bow is best, which broadhead shoots the best, which animal is the hardest to hunt, etc. etc. is that it divides the hunting community. Do you know who that benefits? The anti hunters and those against the second amendment. Rather than telling me, someone who is likely on your side, that a post is weak give one of your three brain cells enough attention to try to figure out what you can do to protect hunting rights.

-Start thread with absurd premise
-Tell those that call you out on it that they only have three brain cells
-Accuse others of being divisive.

lol.

 

[WVELK]

While @mxgsfmdpx, may have overstated the actual %, what he is trying to convey is accurate in my experience. Guides do not focus on the technical aspects of killing. A good guide, puts their client in a position to make a good clean kill. Most I have met, ( I used to guide as well), focus on getting to the shot opportunity and getting the meat out of the field.

It's 25/75, experienced outdoorsman vs. novice hunters they guide for. Most clients, disappoint on multiple fronts, whether it be shooting, packing, hiking, camping. Guides have a ton of valuable experience to share, technical bullet selection, just typically isn't one of them.

OP, you may have gotten a guide that did excel on the technical front. Those are the exception, not the norm in my experience.

I agree with a lot of what you say and what a lot of what has been said by others. I was around 20 plus guides this fall in British Columbia. We were together for two months. One of them knew more about ballistics, reloading, shooting and firearms than most people I know personally. I would estimate 80 percent of them were well versed in the benefits and disadvantages of cup and core bullets, monolithics, bonded, etc. They all agreed with the statements here that if you put a bullet through both lungs, the animal has a problem. However, they encounter A LOT of hunters that do most of their hunting on forums as opposed to the field. They can not count on those hunters to put the bullet where it is supposed to be.

 

[WVELK]

-Start thread with absurd premise
-Tell those that call you out on it that they only have three brain cells
-Accuse others of being divisive.

lol.

Chis,

What is the absurd premise? That a guide is a source of information that may be beneficial?

 

[WVELK]

Lol. I doubt we’re going to find many anti hunters on Rokslide. Even my three brain cells are smart enough to realize that forums exist for the very reason to discuss things like this.

Hence the word forum.

The word "forum" originates from Latin, meaning "public place," "marketplace," or "open space". It was the name for the central public square in an ancient Roman city where commercial, political, and judicial activities took place. The term is also related to the Latin words for "outside" and "door," suggesting the idea of an enclosed, open-air space.

Modern meaning:
The word has evolved to describe any place or medium for public discussion and the open exchange of ideas, such as an online forum or a public meeting.

Again, you are somewhat confused. I did not say that anti hunters were on the forum. I was trying to get you to understand there is zero need for people in the hunting community to start right out of the gate attacking rather than having an intelligent conversation. And, yes if you attack me with a campfire, I am going to start a forrest fire.

 

[TaperPin]

Isn’t the real topic how to determine trustworthy sources of information and people with good judgement?

It usually takes 5 minutes talking with someone to tell how sharp someone is, how useful their judgement is and what their paradigm is. Some guides are great sources of information and some aren’t, that’s normal. Usually, a person with extensive experience in something is mostly correct in their frame of reference, but to generalize about their frame of reference is so simplistic as to be laughable.

If someone can’t interpret what they are hearing and read between the lines they probably should ignore anyone that disagrees with them to keep from muddying the waters and challenging their beliefs. Sensitive people aren’t wrong and are just doing what they need to do in order to protect their feelings.

On the other hand being able to hear a person’s experiences with cartridges that wouldn’t be your choice is still a valuable source of information of what works and doesn’t. I get a chuckle when someone defends their position while discounting anyone who also regularly kill things, as if the animals weren’t actually killed.

Nothing about killing animals today is new, only high BC is new. Fragmenting high velocity small caliber bullets are well over 100 years old.

 

[peterk123]

As a guide I have many comments on broadheads, try to stay out of it here as some are sponsors…

I disagree with my outfitter on caliber and bullet options. However I will take one guy who knows his gun and how to shoot over one who just buys what they read. I take notes in my journal about most days and every kill. No I am not a 5 month Alaska or nwt guide though.

8 out of the 10 guys who I regularly guide with do not understand or care they are the tough cowboys, I understand what you say, I respectfully disagree with you on stating as a whole though or 98%

I know my tikka 308. I know my limits. That gun has taken bear, antelope, whitetail, muley, elk and coyote.

If I'm a guide, I would take comfort in knowing what my client and his gun are capable of. I'd be nervous if the client showed up with a new gun and a new caliber that he had not killed animals with yet.

 

[207North]

View attachment 967570This year, my outfitter demanded I use a 30 caliber rifle for the “knock down power”. I would have preferred to take my 6.5 PRC that I love and shoot the best, but I obliged. I hit an elk high with my 300 PRC at 625 yards, and the elk ran away never to be seen again. It’s my fault, but sure wish that “knock down power” would have worked.

Everyone knows that 300prc is marginal at best. It lacks the proper wallop.

A 338 Norma would have been a good minimum on a shot like that.

Guides agree

 

[Brontosaurus]

P

Thread '.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.'

Jun 3, 2019

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.

---

“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223 is where I ended up after many discussions and objective data regarding bullet performance and numerous pics of field results.

Now for the delivery system. Accurate. Repeatable. Reliable. Reasonable weight to afford steady shot placement and the ability to spot my own impacts...

• PNWGATOR
• Replies: 12,090
• Forum: Firearms

• 
• 
• 

Thread '6mm /.243 hunting success on Big Game'

Oct 28, 2022

With the success of .223 and 6.5 threads on big game, thought I’d throw this one into the mix.

Show and detail your results harvesting big game (deer, bear, elk, moose, African game) using 6mm/.243 cartridges. Please detail bullet, MV, impact velocity, and whether hand load or factory ammo.

• BjornF16
• Replies: 2,433
• Forum: Firearms

• 

Thread '.25 Cal (Quarter Bore) / Big Game Success - 25 Creed, 25-284, 25-06, 25 PRC, 25 SAUM'

Nov 29, 2022

With Berger making high BC 25 Cal bullets and Hornady jumping in, I would love to see people’s results.

• Rooggvc
• Replies: 933
• Forum: Firearms

• 

Thread '6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....'

Dec 17, 2021

Seeing that the 223 thread is such a success, I thought maybe I would start one for the Creedmoor/260. Seems like people are asking a lot about using them and various bullets, especially for elk. I've used mine for the last few years almost exclusively. I have some pics of bullet damage, albeit not nearly as many as I should have, from a couple deer. I'll try to briefly describe the ones I don't have pics of.

If you have experiences, good or bad, post them up. Of course, pics are great, and add a lot of valuable information. Maybe it will take off, maybe it won't, but if it does it...

• woods89
• Replies: 1,832
• Forum: Firearms

• 

Rokslide is not just forum hunters or keyboard cowboys. Lots of roksliders are legit killers with records to show it.

 

[Chris in TN]

Chis,

What is the absurd premise? That a guide is a source of information that may be beneficial?

The absurd premise is that these guides you're fanboying over have a greater collective knowledge than the people here. Or that the average person here is in dire need of more advice or experience with ballistics than they already have.

*Your* guides may be smart and may be great. I've met such guides and enjoyed my time with them. But it's absurd to think that means that every guide is a ballistics expert, or that any given guide will even know more than the average member of this forum.

Some guides are overly cautious. And sometimes that means they don't want you to take shots you can make, other times it means they want you to use rifles with more power than you need. Other guides are downright reckless and see any shot you take as a fulfillment of their end of their service agreement - you had your shot, it's your fault you didn't make a hit, even if they were urging you to shoot past your effective range. Both types exist. Then there's plenty of others with a broad range of experience that can offer good advice to the person that needs it - but even then, you're assuming that the average poster here falls into that latter category.

The truth is, both hunters and guides cover a bell-curve of knowledge and experience that leads some of them to be overly cautious and some to be reckless and it's honestly fairly doubtful that people posting here are so far onto either end of that bell curve that they need to pick a guide's brains in order to kill stuff.

 

[jfk69]

Again, you are somewhat confused. I did not say that anti hunters were on the forum. I was trying to get you to understand there is zero need for people in the hunting community to start right out of the gate attacking rather than having an intelligent conversation. And, yes if you attack me with a campfire, I am going to start a forrest fire.

And yet, I didn’t attack you personally. I stated the post was weak. And I stand by that. It was like “look at me, you should know what I know, but I’m not telling you”. And you respond by personally attacking me “give one of your three brain cells enough attention”. I’m confused about nothing other than your unwillingness to share on a forum the enlightening information you so willingly trumpeted that you gained in your initial post.

 

[voltage]

Everyone knows that 300prc is marginal at best. It lacks the proper wallop.

A 338 Norma would have been a good minimum on a shot like that.

Guides agree

“That’s why I really like the 338 Lapua”
-another guide after watching the shot video

 

[WVELK]

This happened this year and it did not come from a guide. I know a lot of people

Isn’t the real topic how to determine trustworthy sources of information and people with good judgement?

It usually takes 5 minutes talking with someone to tell how sharp someone is, how useful their judgement is and what their paradigm is. Some guides are great sources of information and some aren’t, that’s normal. Usually, a person with extensive experience in something is mostly correct in their frame of reference, but to generalize about their frame of reference is so simplistic as to be laughable.

If someone can’t interpret what they are hearing and read between the lines they probably should ignore anyone that disagrees with them to keep from muddying the waters and challenging their beliefs. Sensitive people aren’t wrong and are just doing what they need to do in order to protect their feelings.

On the other hand being able to hear a person’s experiences with cartridges that wouldn’t be your choice is still a valuable source of information of what works and doesn’t. I get a chuckle when someone defends their position while discounting anyone who also regularly kill things, as if the animals weren’t actually killed.

Nothing about killing animals today is new, only high BC is new. Fragmenting high velocity small caliber bullets are well over 100 years old.

Yes, that is exactly what this is about. Talk to a guide get his opinion and then evaluate whether it is a trustworthy source. I have encountered both trustworthy and worthless over the years. Here is an example of what I witnessed this year on a goat hunt. A guide that I later concluded told a hunter who was there that ELDMs were not the best bullet for long range shots at goats. His theory was they came apart too quickly when they struck a goat that has a thick winter coat full of ice, shale, dirt etc. He said he had seen them fail on goats several times. THREE days later I watched that same hunter shoot a goat at a long distance with the ELDMs and he hit where it should have killed the goat easily. Broadside shot. That goat was never recovered or found. It did not knock the goat down. You can see the bullet hit on the video. It just did not work as I would have thought. Do ELDMs kill animals? Yes, lots of animals are killed with them according to folks on here. Will I use them on goats in the future? No? Are goats killed with ELDMs? I am sure some are. But, back to my point this guide earned my respect and I would pay attention to what he has to say about bullets.

 

[EdP]

To add to what TaperPin said, I don't think many guides keep detailed data on calibers and bullets used and their effectiveness, but those that do are probably worth listening to. It would take a bit of time talking to a guide, preferably in a one on one situation, to discern if the info offered is quality info or BS.

I've only been on a few guided hunts, but the one where the outfitter/guide asked what caliber and grain bullet I was using, he got it wrong when he put the picture up on his website and said 165gr when I had told him 180.

 

[Chris in TN]

long range shots at goats. thick winter coat full of ice, shale, dirt etc. ELDMs and he hit where it should have killed the goat easily. Broadside shot. That goat was never recovered or found. It did not knock the goat down. You can see the bullet hit on the video.

I've always heard goats were dumb but now you're telling me they're up-armoring with shale in their coats. Yeah, that could complicate things.

I won't comment on the rest until you show us the video.