Turkey Gaggle Question

[BigCam47]

I have been trying to find information on group behavior and have been unable to find it. Maybe someone here has insight from experience.

If there is a group of birds that has a dominant tom, multiple hens, and a few jakes. If the Tom gets shot do the other members of the group remain and eventually one of the Jakes takes the dominant role? Or do the hens disband and go search for another dominant Tom?

 

[JPD350]

In my un-professional opinion another Tom will take its place fairly soon, the Jakes will pretend to be a Tom but only temporarily. I also think the hens generally stick together in their respective groups until they are bred, then they will go solo and do their thing.

 

[deerhunt1988]

First time i've heard a flock of turkey called a gaggle. lol

 

[go_deep]

I've seen groups of Jake's beat the living crap out of a tom. So if said Tom gets shot, it'll just depend on how empowered and confident the Jake's get to team up and beat the piss out of a Tom that tries taking over.

 

[Wetwork]

Just so happens right in front of my gf's game cam a flock stopped. I'm talking just a few feet away. So the Tom was all strutting, spitting and being all cool and a hen just walked over and layed down in front of him. Like he had hypnotized her or something? He walked around her twice then saddled up. Two other Toms circled around watching (sick bastids) the pair go at it . Then when the two finished, the Tom just strutted off chasing another hen. The other Toms just watched, and I noticed a jake way, way in the back who didn't even come in to watch. Nobody interfered at all. I've seen other critters push each other off but not wth these turkey.

Funny thing was as we were watching this on our big screen tv frame by frame, I glanced over to the gf just once...just a tiny sideways glance. A firm "No" was definatly uttered....dammit. LOL-WW

 

[BigCam47]

I can’t confirm if another Tom is in the area but there definitely were Jake’s. Tried not to pressure it too much hoping the Jake’s would stick around and turn into mature birds of the area. Haven’t seen them yet this year tho…

 

[fatlander]

The gang will stay where it is. Another is dominant male will take the place of the dominant gobbler you killed.


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[dtrkyman]

Way more complicated than another bird simply taking over.

Last August, Dr. Michael Chamberlain gave a detailed presentation to Alabama’s Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) explaining research that indicates our turkey season is starting too soon. Dr. Chamberlain is a leading wild turkey biologist and a die-hard turkey hunter. He makes a case that dominant gobblers getting killed before hens finish laying their eggs disrupts a complex hierarchy wild turkeys go through where hens have already selected the dominant gobbler to breed with. If that gobbler gets killed, her breeding and nesting are likely delayed, and her clutch is potentially less viable. According to research biologists, this scenario when the dominant gobbler is killed before a hen finishes laying her eggs can result in a complex cascade of issues for the local turkeys. Issues include hens being bred by non-dominant gobblers that might not even be viable to breed yet due to low testosterone and sperm. Also, nesting is delayed for some hens, which makes all nests more susceptible to predators because that local turkey population can’t benefit from predator swamping, which is when a large percentage of females nest at one time so the predators can’t get all of them.

Chamberlain, wealth of information on turkeys! Has some really interesting info and theories from lot's of research.

Look up the Meateater podcast he did a couple springs ago.

 

[Marble]

I have been trying to find information on group behavior and have been unable to find it. Maybe someone here has insight from experience.

If there is a group of birds that has a dominant tom, multiple hens, and a few jakes. If the Tom gets shot do the other members of the group remain and eventually one of the Jakes takes the dominant role? Or do the hens disband and go search for another dominant Tom?

When this happens, not only are the Jake's going to go for the top dog status, but other Tom's will try to become the top bird. It's a combination of pecking order within the Toms and choice from the hens.

The bad thing about killing a dominate Tom in the middle of breeding season is that it shakes up the entire pecking order and can take days or even weeks to be reestablished. This causes some hens to not get bred. Then they wait until a new cycle the following month (or not at all) and the whole things starts back over.

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[Marble]

Way more complicated than another bird simply taking over.

Last August, Dr. Michael Chamberlain gave a detailed presentation to Alabama’s Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) explaining research that indicates our turkey season is starting too soon. Dr. Chamberlain is a leading wild turkey biologist and a die-hard turkey hunter. He makes a case that dominant gobblers getting killed before hens finish laying their eggs disrupts a complex hierarchy wild turkeys go through where hens have already selected the dominant gobbler to breed with. If that gobbler gets killed, her breeding and nesting are likely delayed, and her clutch is potentially less viable. According to research biologists, this scenario when the dominant gobbler is killed before a hen finishes laying her eggs can result in a complex cascade of issues for the local turkeys. Issues include hens being bred by non-dominant gobblers that might not even be viable to breed yet due to low testosterone and sperm. Also, nesting is delayed for some hens, which makes all nests more susceptible to predators because that local turkey population can’t benefit from predator swamping, which is when a large percentage of females nest at one time so the predators can’t get all of them.

Chamberlain, wealth of information on turkeys! Has some really interesting info and theories from lot's of research.

Look up the Meateater podcast he did a couple springs ago.

Thank you! I was just too lazy to write this same info in my prior post.

I believe his theory is spot on. Anecdotally, a few years back we killed several of the big toms on the ranch. We pretty much wiped out all of the long beards and left only Jake's. And there were a lot of Jake's left. In the years proceeding that the amount t of mature toms was very low and overall numbers were down. I've put a limit on how many birds can be killed on the ranch now to hopefully keep the population where it's at. We used to have 200 to 300 birds on the ranch each year, but in the last couple, the numbers are way down. This year is the best so far in several, but still not where it should be.

I think this is the same guy on Instagram called the wildturkeydoctor. He's a wealth of 30 plus years of knowledge.

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[dtrkyman]

It is wild turkey doc, I just copied it. I have seen similar things happen when taking tom's from large flocks early season. Upsets the apple cart.

 

[deerhunt1988]

Just a reminder that the "dominant gobbler theory" is still just a theory. There is currently not ample research to call it fact . Even the most recent studies show nesting dates,nest initiation, and other metrics to be about the same as they've been the past 20-30 years. If hens weren't getting bred or breeding was delayed, wouldn't the data start showing later nest initiation dates? Or a greater percentage of hens who don't attempt to nest?

One thing Chamberlain has definitely done is made every turkey hunter with social media a turkey biologist.

Not saying the theory is false, I think there may be a little to it. Lets let the research show it though. However, it is not the sole reason for all our turkey woes in areas where they are declining.

 

[Jimss]

I agree 100% with Dr. Michael Chamberlain's scenario! I believe his reasoning is gaining more attention. In fact, most of Wyo's turkey units were delayed with later season dates for the first time this year in hopes that more hens will get bred before hunting seasons open.

It's really a shame to see turkey numbers across most of the midwest dramatically decline (Nebraska and Kansas in particular). At least Kansas has decreased tag numbers. Nebraska tag numbers remain the same and their turkey numbers are pathetic. Obviously selling 3 spring male turkey tags to nonres is big $ but poor management! If poor nesting conditions and fewer and fewer hens getting bred continues high tag numbers could back-fire!

It's gotten to the point in the Nebraska area I hunt that it's not worth hunting. I've always shot 3 toms on properties I've hunting and this year is the first year I decided to hunt elsewhere. Just about every mature tom is harvested leaving only jakes with hens. If any toms are present they likely get ganged up on by jakes.

If you want a prime example of what happens to nesting success, nesting dates, etc after toms are shot I'd take a close look at what's happening in some of the heavily hunted and depleted turkey zones in Nebraska and Kansas. Wyo's later season date units could be used as a stark contrast. You may want to keep an eye on what happens in Wyo to see if their new later season dates are a success.

 

[dtrkyman]

Many states employ later openers or split up seasons to delay gobbler harvest, Chamberlain isn’t the only one to believe the theory.

Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan have multiple seasons to spread out the harvest, Missouri is a single season but only allows one bird the first week. And several start season on a Monday.

Old research started long before Chamberlain, he didn’t come up with the theory he just believes it.

I can’t remember the specific studies, maybe Lovett Williams?

It is just a really logical theory and as stated above I have witnessed this potentially going on after early Tom harvests.


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[deerhunt1988]

Many states employ later openers or split up seasons to delay gobbler harvest, Chamberlain isn’t the only one to believe the theory.

Missouri, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan have multiple seasons to spread out the harvest, Missouri is a single season but only allows one bird the first week. And several start season on a Monday.

Old research started long before Chamberlain, he didn’t come up with the theory he just believes it.

I can’t remember the specific studies, maybe Lovett Williams?

It is just a really logical theory and as stated above I have witnessed this potentially going on after early Tom harvests.


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Missouri has had one of the most conservative frameworks for decades. And guess what? They are seeing declines just like other places.

Arkansas started pushing their season later about a decade ago. And they are not much better off now than they were then.

Once again, there is way more to the declines than "dominant gobbler" harvest.

 

[dtrkyman]

Agreed, it is a drop in the bucket, but any help is needed, populations are seeing declines in most places. In my opinion habitat trumps all.

Arkansas waiting too long for their changes from what it seems, Arkansas and many of the southern states have a definite poaching issue, limits and seasons do not apply to many.

I met a guy from Alabama, he had sole access to thousands of acres, complained of the declining bird numbers on the place, then spouted off about killing a dozen on his "best" year.

I met another guy that stated Mississippi had two seasons, salt and pepper!