The Problem With Hunting Clothing Brands Today

[Brad@Argali]

@Brad@Argali thanks for the explanation on offshore manufacturing. I prefer to buy US made because I want to support domestic workers. However, I am not typically one to buy crap just because it’s made in the US.

My priorities are durability, fit and function. I could care less about camo. I have a pair of Outdoor Research Cirque pants that are one of the finest pairs of pants I own, but are lacking side zips and the fabric is a little loud. Durability and attention to detail (suspender loops and a gaiter hook) are fantastic.

I’m super interested in what you come up with. I’ve been shopping for pants and will hold out to see what you introduce.

That totally makes sense to me and I'm the same way. My bias is always towards quality.

 

[Timberline001]

athletic fit, a single broad use camo pattern (vias style) and a few solid color ways.

 

[Shraggs]

Wow so many spot on comments and really wondered if another comment is needed!

When the mountaineering influence merged with hunters I think it was innovative and needed. It sure has gotten out of hand and I believe the use of lighter synthetic fabrics regardless of “quality” that are so breathable, then adding laminates to ward off wind/rain has been a paradox in active use, and certainly durability given price.

Also to echo the pure actuarial sku proliferation from investor run buy outs, it’s a turn off, as is a company making hunting specific items, duck, turkey, deer, elk, etc. I generally look elsewhere.

You are either static, active or a combination of. And it’s either warm, moderate, cold or frickin freezing. Camo is ok and so are solids.

I’ve come full circle in a couple of areas. First is if I’m active breathability is paramount and I’m hesitant with insulation and weather barriers in one garment. Second, I’m cautious with synthetics generally and favor wool and down if warmth is needed. I have some fine fleece and primaloft pieces I like a lot, but over the years most hasn’t lasted or loses it’s original use value.

Down honestly can be had anywhere but I’d like to see a coat a warmer than a chamberlain but based on its cut.

Wool is a bit more challenging, worsted as filson used to call isn’t the answer way too heavy for its warmth. But there are other “unique” methods for washing and spinning merino into knits of varying “tightness?” To yield surprising wind blocking and amazing warmth and water repellentency. A vest I bought from weather wool that cost me a kidney - will never loose a botton… well made wool is bombproof over a lifetime+ in my experience.

I love my woolnet merino long John’s. Unbelievable in static or active use and so hard to just pick up a pair that I only use them for my western trips and use my plethora of FL icebreaker etc for local deer and vermin hunting.

So please make for me

An American made merino woolnet - thanks for that education but I think/hope this might be doable…?

A “unique” wool hunting pant say in a 7 oz and 14 oz per yard with crouch vent and good pockets. No zippers just buttons.

A “unique” wool vest same weights and bottoms.

A very warm down jacket that isn’t as short as mountaineering type, not a parka either. Some outer durability and some wind blocking but not sealed up and bombproof for me isn’t needed since I’m not going to be active in it. Hood yes, zipper yk10. If it weighs a few ounces more that’s ok I can omit a fleece mid layer.

A rain or cold wind shell system that is light weight cotton tight weave either waxed or preferably oiled. Or anything that breathes when I’m low activity like my surplus cotton rain paint or the light weight shelter cloth. Both I have are decades old.

Those 5 items get me most hunting based on the 7 weather and activity categories considerations including any number of decent midlayers we all already have and rain/shell when warranted.

The quality, durability is out there with similar products but often hard to find and get. One company to acquire a few not common but global proven stuff over time.

Regardless less sku’s of items, but a lot of different sku’s for sizes especially pants. For shorter folks, try to find a pant less than 32”.

On the warmer side of garb, there is so many choices out there is it worth the effort?

 

[handwerk]

I try and support hunting brands when I can. Although brand ownership matters to an extent I also pay a lot of attention on how these companies take care of their employees and give back to their community as a whole.

 

[Burney Mac]

I think if you married the Wrangler ATG and the Kuiu Katana you'd have a solid product that wouldn't break the bank and would cover a wide array of activities from the east coast to the west coast for the blue collar guy as well as the high roller.

What the ATG is lacking IMO....roomier front slash pockets ( not the Levi 501 pocket ) and more durable fabric that actually breathes, no hip vents and the back pockets could be a little more snug. Their durability kinda sucks but they don't break the bank either.

What I like are the side cargo pockets with zipper closure that are actually on the sides of your legs, instead of on the front, which drives me up the wall.

I like Katana's but their length and sizing kinda sucks. I wore the same pair for 16 days straight last year and they held their shape, didn't stretch out and become baggy and were very durable. I'm not a fan of the front leg cargo pockets.

Take the ATG fit and length, use the Katana fabric, keep the zippered cargo pockets on the sides of the leg, add front slash pockets, snug up the back pocket, run the hip vents from the bottom of the rear pocket down behind the back of the cargo pocket to the bottom, keep a mesh liner and I think then you'd have a pant you could elk hunt in, deer hunt in, fish in, wear waders with, go to work in, mow the grass in....pretty much the perfect pant for 90% of applications. And when it gets chilly....add a base layer.

I think there is alot of us who don't fall into the fan boy category that just want gear that is functionable across a wide array of activities that doesn't break the bank.


I own nothing from Argali. However, Brad's already gained my respect from the products he's brought forward due to trying to overcome others shortcomings that he personally saw flaws in. Moving forward, if a need arises and Argali offers it, then they'll get my first look.

 

[Robinhood21]

One of the biggest reasons I originally started buying KUIU is it was almost the anti-sitka at the time. Direct to consumer pricing & great product. Loved Jason's vision, transparency & drive to make the best. I remember in one of his transparency videos he stated that he had got better pricing on the fabrics he was using and he actually took that savings and trickled it down to the buyer and lowered the pricing on some items... that never happens. He was truly for the hunter.

KUIU is now is a very different company. I still wear mainly their product & love it but their pricing structure is not the same and overall vision as a business has vastly changed. Do I blame them?.. not at all, it's business.

The dog collars and Ice Cube trays are a little annoying though.

 

[nephewjephew]

Ventile Cotton

 

[Robinhood21]

Clothing pieces have become so niche and narrow focused it seems. I think there is a lot to be said for a small, well executed, versatile lineup of items.

100% I can't tell you how many KUIU pieces I've bought because I thought it would be good for a certain situation but then ended up not ever wearing it and selling it.

I always go back to my tried and true pieces.

Tops:
145 Merino
Peloton 240
Superdown Pro

Bottoms:
145 Merino
Attacks
Superdown Ultra

This system gets me by almost 100% of the time

 

[Macintosh]

The problem with "the problem with xxx product" threads, is that its by definition not an objective thing. It sounds great to say things like "made for a specific reason and use case", or "priorities are fit, durability, function and weight", but at the end of the day those are meaningless statements becasue its an ultra-rarity for those things to be based on more than preference or happenstance. We all want a better fit, but we're all shaped differently---either you get a boxy generic fit, or you have a crazy sku-count and short and tall sizing, or you just write off everyone who happens to be short or tall. We all want better durability, but then we all have different balancing points on weight, and we're all thrashing through different levels and types of vegetation--you either make multiples of the "same" thing, or you pick one. We all want better functionality, but that means more pockets to this guy over here, and super-Spartan ultra-minimalist to that guy over there--again, you either make multiple garments to fill the same niche, or you pick one. This guy wants a hood on all layers, while I refuse to have more than 2 hoods on at once...again, there goes that sku-count, or you just pick one and everyone else gets to buy from a different company. Just look at the scope threads as an example, everyone thinks they are among kindred spirits in lamenting why no company offeres what so many people want...until you realize that everyone wants something different and no one wants to compromise on it becasue they dont have to. @Brad@Argali this isnt aimed at you or anyone, I just think its 99% hot air to try to see what everyone wants becasue you WILL NOT get massive focus on what everyone wants without making generic product that no one is really happy with, or with an unrealistic sku-count. Just be hyper-focused on who YOUR target customer is, dont blow smoke at people who dont fit those criteria, make what you think is needed for the reasons that you think it's better, do a good job explaining that, and to the degree you aren't out in left field people will follow.

I'll just throw out that my (unattainable) priorities are:
1. tall/lean sizing (I refuse to wear a tent with short sleeves just becasue the majority of fit-models are seemingly either fat or juiced weightlifters)
2. solid earth-tone colors that arent brown or green (I refuse to dress like a deer during deer season, and everything else I own is already olive and I would rather not look like the castelvetrano fruit -of-the-loom guy)
3. versatility for other activities (prefer not to buy stuff only for hunting or only for use in arid climate)
4. simplicity (I cant stand gimmicky features that I wont use that add very little value or even harm function, while adding cost and bulk, ie "adjustable fly", extra pockets, a hood on every layer, etc).

 

[Harvey_NW]

I always go back to my tried and true pieces.

Tops:
145 Merino
Peloton 240
Superdown Pro

Bottoms:
145 Merino
Attacks
Superdown Ultra

This system gets me by almost 100% of the time

This but I prefer the Axis Hybrid and Kenai jackets, and Pro's for pants.

For whatever reason (IDK if it's dies, or what) my Pro's are Verde pattern and they're way more water and snag resistant than my solid Attacks, but they're supposedly the same material. Maybe something interesting to test during development.

 

[bojangles808]

One of the biggest reasons I originally started buying KUIU is it was almost the anti-sitka at the time. Direct to consumer pricing & great product. Loved Jason's vision, transparency & drive to make the best. I remember in one of his transparency videos he stated that he had got better pricing on the fabrics he was using and he actually took that savings and trickled it down to the buyer and lowered the pricing on some items... that never happens.

That's funny bc I remember switching to sitka specifically bc the whole "were so transparent were so innovative" schtick from Jason Brandon and kuiu was such bs. They moved production overseas, threw a tantrum bc rokslide threw their pack off a cliff, had issues with tents and then frames cracking on packs and then closed down their kuiu forum too when people started being critical of certain products/ aspects of the company. There's a few products that no one still comes close to like the Tiburon pant but for a long time I tried to avoid giving them a dime if there was something comparable. Unfortunately sitka, sg and first lite in recent years haven't done themselves any favors either. So it's kinda a pick your poison thing from the big brands. I usually lean on who I can get the biggest discount from.

Something like what the exo guys and outdoor vitals are doing is something that I'm looking forward to trying and getting behind.. Some well thought out simple pieces in lots of sizes, in solid colors done at an affordable price. Also getting out on podcasts and explaining the why behind the pieces also helps and makes me want to support them more. We'll see when they ship but they seem to be on the right track

 

[deadend88]

I’m interested to see this offering. I’ve tried every hunting brand pant there is except Kuiu (personal principle) I can never find a quality that combines all my needs. The new SG Praxxis is quiet with great features but the fit is ridiculously large for someone who is thin. Born Primitive is a great pant, but you can hear them from a basin away. Everything i Iwear is a hodgepodge of 1 great offering from one of the brands. Any Alpha direct pieces in my opinion would be a must. My Midlayer is an alpha piece from a cottage backpacking brand, and will be in my pack until they find me dead on the mountain. Anxious to see what Argali brings to market.

 

[strattonje2020]

You could say the same thing about any product in the outdoor space. The subtlty of any product is what makes it a good product or a great product. It's the small details and subtle differences that make something exceptional.

And there is a lot that goes into the choices companies make for what fabric to use, and there are nearly endless options out there. Cost is usually one of the predominant driving factors for most companies. There are new fabrics, new technologies developing all the time. If the big players had figured it all out, we wouldn't exist as a company, nor would most of the smaller hunting industry companies.

Very valid and thank you for replying. When we are buying any small brand you can argue we’re buying the same mindset or body type of the designer/owner etc.

This seems to be a niche in the hunting space where you have to prove yourself.

Thats why we have 3-4 top tier pack frames and you could say each fits a niche group of our community or maybe even a certain body type more than another. Each one of those brands has a due hard loyalty. But each brand goes by the philosophy of the owner/designer. Example steve believes in dry bag while another says pack cover. Even sitka big game designs are largely influenced by john barklow. One mans opinion.

Unless you create something truly revolutionary, I think efforts would be better suited doing what stone glacier did and create something someone has to have and trusts ( brand name). Even their apparel line left a-lot to be desired, but sold out routinely. By the videos online it seemed like kurt designed alot of cuts and fit which made since as they are more made for long slender frames. Similar to his.

To me first lite has really stepped up after they hired a designer from arcteryx. Im not sure if they are still there but they are at-least putting out different designs such as kit link venting and better cuts and sewing for cleaner fits.

Unless you start out right and get someone who has expensive experience with technical clothing design to portray your ideas properly. Your leaving alot left to be on the table.

Brands that never seemed to kick off that came out of no where.

Canis, tuo, forloh, skre is meh ( more budget tech wear)

 

[Brad@Argali]

The problem with "the problem with xxx product" threads, is that its by definition not an objective thing. It sounds great to say things like "made for a specific reason and use case", or "priorities are fit, durability, function and weight", but at the end of the day those are meaningless statements becasue its an ultra-rarity for those things to be based on more than preference or happenstance. We all want a better fit, but we're all shaped differently---either you get a boxy generic fit, or you have a crazy sku-count and short and tall sizing, or you just write off everyone who happens to be short or tall. We all want better durability, but then we all have different balancing points on weight, and we're all thrashing through different levels and types of vegetation--you either make multiples of the "same" thing, or you pick one. We all want better functionality, but that means more pockets to this guy over here, and super-Spartan ultra-minimalist to that guy over there--again, you either make multiple garments to fill the same niche, or you pick one. This guy wants a hood on all layers, while I refuse to have more than 2 hoods on at once...again, there goes that sku-count, or you just pick one and everyone else gets to buy from a different company. Just look at the scope threads as an example, everyone thinks they are among kindred spirits in lamenting why no company offeres what so many people want...until you realize that everyone wants something different and no one wants to compromise on it becasue they dont have to. @Brad@Argali this isnt aimed at you or anyone, I just think its 99% hot air to try to see what everyone wants becasue you WILL NOT get massive focus on what everyone wants without making generic product that no one is really happy with, or with an unrealistic sku-count. Just be hyper-focused on who YOUR target customer is, dont blow smoke at people who dont fit those criteria, make what you think is needed for the reasons that you think it's better, do a good job explaining that, and to the degree you aren't out in left field people will follow.

I'll just throw out that my (unattainable) priorities are:
1. tall/lean sizing (I refuse to wear a tent with short sleeves just becasue the majority of fit-models are seemingly either fat or juiced weightlifters)
2. solid earth-tone colors that arent brown or green (I refuse to dress like a deer during deer season, and everything else I own is already olive and I would rather not look like the castelvetrano fruit -of-the-loom guy)
3. versatility for other activities (prefer not to buy stuff only for hunting or only for use in arid climate)
4. simplicity (I cant stand gimmicky features that I wont use that add very little value or even harm function, while adding cost and bulk, ie "adjustable fly", extra pockets, a hood on every layer, etc).

You have some great points. When it comes to clothing, you can't make everyone happy, and I'm not going to try to do that. I'm also not delusional in thinking I have all of the answers. What I can say is I'm going to focus on building something for the type of hunting I and most people here do, and not just add design features (i.e. bullshit pockets just to have pockets) to make things look different.

But here is the thing. How you approach designing anything is paramount. Any time we make something, we are very specific with the purpose we are trying to achieve, and all of the choices we make for that product are done to achieve that purpose. That isn't unique necessarily, but what happens with a lot of companies is at some point, material costs, deadlines and other factors cause you to start making sacrifices to hit your price point, get it done on time, etc.

The reason I think it is important to get opinions from core end users is because I don't want to just do what I want. I care a LOT about fabric noise, but I archery hunt 80% of the time these days. Not everyone cares about that. Quiet clothing can be more delicate, so there can be a durability tradeoff for quietness. Those types of inputs are incredibly helpful for me to hear.

Anyway, appreciate your thoughts, and I particularly agree with your #1-4.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Very valid and thank you for replying. When we are buying any small brand you can argue we’re buying the same mindset or body type of the designer/owner etc.

This seems to be a niche in the hunting space where you have to prove yourself.

Thats why we have 3-4 top tier pack frames and you could say each fits a niche group of our community or maybe even a certain body type more than another. Each one of those brands has a due hard loyalty. But each brand goes by the philosophy of the owner/designer. Example steve believes in dry bag while another says pack cover. Even sitka big game designs are largely influenced by john barklow. One mans opinion.

Unless you create something truly revolutionary, I think efforts would be better suited doing what stone glacier did and create something someone has to have and trusts ( brand name). Even their apparel line left a-lot to be desired, but sold out routinely. By the videos online it seemed like kurt designed alot of cuts and fit which made since as they are more made for long slender frames. Similar to his.

To me first lite has really stepped up after they hired a designer from arcteryx. Im not sure if they are still there but they are at-least putting out different designs such as kit link venting and better cuts and sewing for cleaner fits.

Unless you start out right and get someone who has expensive experience with technical clothing design to portray your ideas properly. Your leaving alot left to be on the table.

Brands that never seemed to kick off that came out of no where.

Canis, tuo, forloh, skre is meh ( more budget tech wear)

Your spot on. I can tell you I'm not flying solo on this journey. I have a good team of people.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I try and support hunting brands when I can. Although brand ownership matters to an extent I also pay a lot of attention on how these companies take care of their employees and give back to their community as a whole.

I'm glad you do that. I wish more people did!