The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[go_deep]

My hang up is more with the organized churches of today. Grew up Lutheran going to church every sunday and sunday school and vacation bible school whole deal. Been to plenty catholic church my wife is catholic and went to some southern baptist services when i was in basic training which i will say were the most enjoyable, fun and welcoming church function i have been to. Four white kids from south dakota were made felt like we belonged

Seems both the lutheran and catholic are more worried about getting the donations than salvation as i get letters monthly from my childhood church about not getting any donations and when at the mandatory marriage classes the catholic priest did not accept that i could pray to god the same on lake oahe as i could in his brick and mortar building no donation was his insinuation.

Do i believe there is a god or some higher power kind off but then my analytic mind takes over and its a struggle to connect the dots.

I do believe religion is great for some people who need something to get them through tough times but then through out history it has also been the crutch that has supported some of the worst stuff when people believe they need to fight over it.

Some of the best people I know believe in god very much(not pushy about it) we have some great conversations and some who were even pastors and priests are the worst kind of human. This also makes me hard to reconcile it being a determining factor on some ones character.

The unfortunate reality is that more people are turned off because of the people, not the faith.

I'm sorry you've experienced this, but hope someday you can find a way to forgive them for their faults, and find a way back.

Peace be with you.

 

[Shortschaf]

Seems both the lutheran and catholic are more worried about getting the donations than salvation as i get letters monthly from my childhood church about not getting any donations and when at the mandatory marriage classes the catholic priest did not accept that i could pray to god the same on lake oahe as i could in his brick and mortar building no donation was his insinuation.

That is no small point you bring up. I also get fatigued by donation requests. Especially when on occasion I disagree on how some of the money is spent.

As necessary as the church is to us, it is still a a human institution, and therefore subject to our sinful nature even from within it. It is as hypocritical as it gets.

For me, I continually have to remind myself that the sins of a single person or multiple persons (even within the church) do not condemn an entire organization.

And as bad as it has been, the good still outweighs the bad

Not really directed at you @KurtR

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I have no idea what a jar of godly is (really a poor example of evidence it seems), but I'm not claiming god exists. The burden of proof is on you, in this case, since that is your claim.

So being born means being created (so a definitive starting place if you will), but death (so a definitive ending place) is not really dead? Okay, but that seems contradictory since one could draw the logical conclusion that they go hand-in-hand.


Eddie

Eddie, the christian believes (and also many other religions) we have a soul, that is created by God and given to us as a human when we are formed in the womb. Most christians feel this happens instantly when the egg is fertilized, I know some people who feel this isn't an instant process, but I also know from at least one Jewish female she does not believe the soul is given to humans until the "quickening" which is essentially the first time the mom feels her baby move. I do not know the theology behind any of it other than to say what I believe and what christian church believes. It is funny how this belief of when the soul is put into the human body follows closely with the person's thoughts on abortion, but that is a digression.

This soul, a created thing from God, is our life force, it is the thing that makes us different from all the other animals, and it is the thing that will transcend death and be joined with a new heavenly body in the afterlife. We believe the soul is what God was talking about when He said Genesis 1:26-27 "God said let us make human beings in our image....so God created human beings in his own image". We do not believe God is a bipedal walking being all the time, He is certainly that in the form of Jesus, but He can take whatever form He wants and as such is a sort of essence with and without physical form, much like our soul. Our soul is our essence, and this essence will go beyond our dead body and exist in something else in the after life.

So while we are unaware of our souls existence prior to our being born, we do not begin to understand when that process happens or how long a soul is in existence without a human body to be placed into. That is above anyone on earth's paygrade. The "logical" thought (in parenthesis there because I know you don't think this is logical at all) is the soul is created when fertilization takes place, but there could be plenty of arguments the soul has existed for a long time before that since "time" doesn't really exist in the presence of God. He can be anywhere at anytime, simultaneously everywhere....man I am digressing a lot.

So the long and short of your question is yes, we are created beings, created by God unique and individual, God knows how many hairs we have on our head, and also knows the innermost dealings of our hearts, but also gives us free will to do and act as we please. It delights Him for us to love Him and worship Him, as any parent would love for their children to love, respect, and honor them. And He delights in us.

Because we are created, we have a beginning. The only being present "In the beginning", was God in the trinity. God was the only thing not created. He was, is, and forever will be. So yes, we have a beginning or creation at some point. But because God loves us, we are told our soul can be with God and never end; He wants us to spend eternity with Him.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

That is no small point you bring up. I also get fatigued by donation requests. Especially when on occasion I disagree on how some of the money is spent.

As necessary as the church is to us, it is still a a human institution, and therefore subject to our sinful nature even from within it. It is as hypocritical as it gets.

For me, I continually have to remind myself that the sins of a single person or multiple persons (even within the church) do not condemn an entire organization.

And as bad as it has been, the good still outweighs the bad

Not really directed at you @KurtR

The manner in which a lot of churches go about the tithing command is rather "put-offish"

I have seen all of it. Pay for your sins. Pay for prosperity. Pay for blessings. Pay for X, Y, Z....its nothing of the sort.

God says we are to trust Him in every aspect of our lives. What better way to show we fully trust Him than to give what He commands of us. He does not offer prosperity or blessings or an easy life in return, He simply offers a life of "you will be provided for" and that should be enough for us....but sadly it isn't.

The institutions of religion have made tithing out to be some sort of mockery, nothing short of the money changers and markets in the temple that Jesus blasted. And the manner in which some churches go at is is worse, setting up renditions of gambling operations for benefit, just to try and ease the burden of giving money. The whole purpose is to place your trust in God, not that you will receive something because you paid.

Sad state of affairs in most churches in the US. And don't get me started on televangelism...what a mockery of christianity. Goes to show even if there was some sort of good intention there (and I am not saying there ever was) it can be so distorted from Truth it isn't funny.

 

[JGRaider]

It definitely hasn’t been answered. A couple mortals have weighed in with their opinions/beliefs on something that is currently unknowable with the evidence that exists. I’m not saying these folks are wrong, it’s possible they’re right. Also, funny that a lot of people’s proof is the Bible itself, which is a circular argument.

Sorry, but wrong again. When satan took Jesus out in the mountains to tempt him, Jesus answered satan with scripture. This was Jesus himself quoting scripture, because it's the truth, and not opinion. Satan was baffled by this, as are many here who get an answer quoting scripture. If it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough, period.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

You

I must apologize if there was something inferred in my statement that would drive anyone away from Christianity. I only hold that Christ Himself and not Morality is the center of Christianity. (Which by definition is Christ-like)
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control are the inseparable outcomes of Christ in someone but they hold no eternal weight apart from the finished work of Christ. My hope is in a God that accepts the finished work of His son (Hence Jesus’ quote that He is the way and the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father apart from Him) rather than any work I might accomplish in myself.
C.S Lewis posed the Lord, Liar, or Lunatic argument and it is still a valid course of reasoning to consider today.
Again, my intent was to point TOWARD the hope we find in Jesus and in no way detract from the transformation He produces in the life of a believer and the fruit which comes as a by-product. (John 15) My apologies if I did otherwise.

Your point wasn’t confusing to anyone that is a living with the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

The most sincere thing I can add is the proof of Christ is found in the hearts of worshipping Christians. If you’ve been there you know it. If you haven’t then it’s definitely a circular mystery.

Thanks to the OP.