The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[go_deep]

My hang up is more with the organized churches of today. Grew up Lutheran going to church every sunday and sunday school and vacation bible school whole deal. Been to plenty catholic church my wife is catholic and went to some southern baptist services when i was in basic training which i will say were the most enjoyable, fun and welcoming church function i have been to. Four white kids from south dakota were made felt like we belonged

Seems both the lutheran and catholic are more worried about getting the donations than salvation as i get letters monthly from my childhood church about not getting any donations and when at the mandatory marriage classes the catholic priest did not accept that i could pray to god the same on lake oahe as i could in his brick and mortar building no donation was his insinuation.

Do i believe there is a god or some higher power kind off but then my analytic mind takes over and its a struggle to connect the dots.

I do believe religion is great for some people who need something to get them through tough times but then through out history it has also been the crutch that has supported some of the worst stuff when people believe they need to fight over it.

Some of the best people I know believe in god very much(not pushy about it) we have some great conversations and some who were even pastors and priests are the worst kind of human. This also makes me hard to reconcile it being a determining factor on some ones character.

The unfortunate reality is that more people are turned off because of the people, not the faith.

I'm sorry you've experienced this, but hope someday you can find a way to forgive them for their faults, and find a way back.

Peace be with you.

 

[Shortschaf]

Seems both the lutheran and catholic are more worried about getting the donations than salvation as i get letters monthly from my childhood church about not getting any donations and when at the mandatory marriage classes the catholic priest did not accept that i could pray to god the same on lake oahe as i could in his brick and mortar building no donation was his insinuation.

That is no small point you bring up. I also get fatigued by donation requests. Especially when on occasion I disagree on how some of the money is spent.

As necessary as the church is to us, it is still a a human institution, and therefore subject to our sinful nature even from within it. It is as hypocritical as it gets.

For me, I continually have to remind myself that the sins of a single person or multiple persons (even within the church) do not condemn an entire organization.

And as bad as it has been, the good still outweighs the bad

Not really directed at you @KurtR

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I have no idea what a jar of godly is (really a poor example of evidence it seems), but I'm not claiming god exists. The burden of proof is on you, in this case, since that is your claim.

So being born means being created (so a definitive starting place if you will), but death (so a definitive ending place) is not really dead? Okay, but that seems contradictory since one could draw the logical conclusion that they go hand-in-hand.


Eddie

Eddie, the christian believes (and also many other religions) we have a soul, that is created by God and given to us as a human when we are formed in the womb. Most christians feel this happens instantly when the egg is fertilized, I know some people who feel this isn't an instant process, but I also know from at least one Jewish female she does not believe the soul is given to humans until the "quickening" which is essentially the first time the mom feels her baby move. I do not know the theology behind any of it other than to say what I believe and what christian church believes. It is funny how this belief of when the soul is put into the human body follows closely with the person's thoughts on abortion, but that is a digression.

This soul, a created thing from God, is our life force, it is the thing that makes us different from all the other animals, and it is the thing that will transcend death and be joined with a new heavenly body in the afterlife. We believe the soul is what God was talking about when He said Genesis 1:26-27 "God said let us make human beings in our image....so God created human beings in his own image". We do not believe God is a bipedal walking being all the time, He is certainly that in the form of Jesus, but He can take whatever form He wants and as such is a sort of essence with and without physical form, much like our soul. Our soul is our essence, and this essence will go beyond our dead body and exist in something else in the after life.

So while we are unaware of our souls existence prior to our being born, we do not begin to understand when that process happens or how long a soul is in existence without a human body to be placed into. That is above anyone on earth's paygrade. The "logical" thought (in parenthesis there because I know you don't think this is logical at all) is the soul is created when fertilization takes place, but there could be plenty of arguments the soul has existed for a long time before that since "time" doesn't really exist in the presence of God. He can be anywhere at anytime, simultaneously everywhere....man I am digressing a lot.

So the long and short of your question is yes, we are created beings, created by God unique and individual, God knows how many hairs we have on our head, and also knows the innermost dealings of our hearts, but also gives us free will to do and act as we please. It delights Him for us to love Him and worship Him, as any parent would love for their children to love, respect, and honor them. And He delights in us.

Because we are created, we have a beginning. The only being present "In the beginning", was God in the trinity. God was the only thing not created. He was, is, and forever will be. So yes, we have a beginning or creation at some point. But because God loves us, we are told our soul can be with God and never end; He wants us to spend eternity with Him.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

That is no small point you bring up. I also get fatigued by donation requests. Especially when on occasion I disagree on how some of the money is spent.

As necessary as the church is to us, it is still a a human institution, and therefore subject to our sinful nature even from within it. It is as hypocritical as it gets.

For me, I continually have to remind myself that the sins of a single person or multiple persons (even within the church) do not condemn an entire organization.

And as bad as it has been, the good still outweighs the bad

Not really directed at you @KurtR

The manner in which a lot of churches go about the tithing command is rather "put-offish"

I have seen all of it. Pay for your sins. Pay for prosperity. Pay for blessings. Pay for X, Y, Z....its nothing of the sort.

God says we are to trust Him in every aspect of our lives. What better way to show we fully trust Him than to give what He commands of us. He does not offer prosperity or blessings or an easy life in return, He simply offers a life of "you will be provided for" and that should be enough for us....but sadly it isn't.

The institutions of religion have made tithing out to be some sort of mockery, nothing short of the money changers and markets in the temple that Jesus blasted. And the manner in which some churches go at is is worse, setting up renditions of gambling operations for benefit, just to try and ease the burden of giving money. The whole purpose is to place your trust in God, not that you will receive something because you paid.

Sad state of affairs in most churches in the US. And don't get me started on televangelism...what a mockery of christianity. Goes to show even if there was some sort of good intention there (and I am not saying there ever was) it can be so distorted from Truth it isn't funny.

 

[JGRaider]

It definitely hasn’t been answered. A couple mortals have weighed in with their opinions/beliefs on something that is currently unknowable with the evidence that exists. I’m not saying these folks are wrong, it’s possible they’re right. Also, funny that a lot of people’s proof is the Bible itself, which is a circular argument.

Sorry, but wrong again. When satan took Jesus out in the mountains to tempt him, Jesus answered satan with scripture. This was Jesus himself quoting scripture, because it's the truth, and not opinion. Satan was baffled by this, as are many here who get an answer quoting scripture. If it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough, period.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

You

I must apologize if there was something inferred in my statement that would drive anyone away from Christianity. I only hold that Christ Himself and not Morality is the center of Christianity. (Which by definition is Christ-like)
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control are the inseparable outcomes of Christ in someone but they hold no eternal weight apart from the finished work of Christ. My hope is in a God that accepts the finished work of His son (Hence Jesus’ quote that He is the way and the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father apart from Him) rather than any work I might accomplish in myself.
C.S Lewis posed the Lord, Liar, or Lunatic argument and it is still a valid course of reasoning to consider today.
Again, my intent was to point TOWARD the hope we find in Jesus and in no way detract from the transformation He produces in the life of a believer and the fruit which comes as a by-product. (John 15) My apologies if I did otherwise.

Your point wasn’t confusing to anyone that is a living with the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

The most sincere thing I can add is the proof of Christ is found in the hearts of worshipping Christians. If you’ve been there you know it. If you haven’t then it’s definitely a circular mystery.

Thanks to the OP.

 

[JackButler]

Sorry, but wrong again. When satan took Jesus out in the mountains to tempt him, Jesus answered satan with scripture. This was Jesus himself quoting scripture, because it's the truth, and not opinion. Satan was baffled by this, as are many here who get an answer quoting scripture. If it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough, period.

Don’t know if you’re correct or not. But scripture being proof is a circular argument. If you were questioning Islam, would you concede they were correct if they cited the Quran as proof. Or if an LDS person quoted the Book of Mormon would you take that as proof Joseph Smith was legit?

 

[JackButler]

I

The most sincere thing I can add is the proof of Christ is found in the hearts of worshipping Christians. If you’ve been there you know it. If you haven’t then it’s definitely a circular mystery.

Thanks to the OP.

agree, but replacing Christ and Christian with 2 words from any other religion would also be the same.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

Where is your moral compass is you support trump? seriously.

 

[Yoder]

Where is your moral compass is you support trump? seriously.

Should I have voted for Kamala? I don't support everything Trump does or says. He was the choice that aligned best with what I believe. Kamala had mobile abortions at the DNC convention. I'm confident I picked the lesser of two evils.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

Should I have voted for Kamala? I don't support everything Trump does or says. He was the choice that aligned best with what I believe. Kamala had mobile abortions at the DNC convention. I'm confident I picked the lesser of two evils.

Mods removed my other posts, .... im not gona repeat myself

 

[Jason Snyder]

Let’s leave politics out of this.

 

[Yoder]

Mods removed my other posts, .... im not gona repeat myself

Do you think actual Christians agree with pedophile priests and child abuse? A lot of "religious" people are hypocrites. It doesn't mean Jesus approves. He actually warns you would be better to have a mill stone put around your neck and be dumped into the ocean than to harm a child. Those people will be judged way more harshly.

I think Trump is an awful person, but I believe Kamala would have destroyed this country so I voted for Trump. My first three choices either didn't run or didn't make it through the primaries.

 

[Awfulhunter]

Eddie, the christian believes (and also many other religions) we have a soul, that is created by God and given to us as a human when we are formed in the womb. Most christians feel this happens instantly when the egg is fertilized, I know some people who feel this isn't an instant process, but I also know from at least one Jewish female she does not believe the soul is given to humans until the "quickening" which is essentially the first time the mom feels her baby move. I do not know the theology behind any of it other than to say what I believe and what christian church believes. It is funny how this belief of when the soul is put into the human body follows closely with the person's thoughts on abortion, but that is a digression.

This soul, a created thing from God, is our life force, it is the thing that makes us different from all the other animals, and it is the thing that will transcend death and be joined with a new heavenly body in the afterlife. We believe the soul is what God was talking about when He said Genesis 1:26-27 "God said let us make human beings in our image....so God created human beings in his own image". We do not believe God is a bipedal walking being all the time, He is certainly that in the form of Jesus, but He can take whatever form He wants and as such is a sort of essence with and without physical form, much like our soul. Our soul is our essence, and this essence will go beyond our dead body and exist in something else in the after life.

I was raised Christian but this belief of humans having a soul & therefor superiority never jived with me. How am I supposed to rationalize it with the theory of evolution?

 

[Shortschaf]

I was raised Christian but this belief of humans having a soul & therefor superiority never jived with me. How am I supposed to rationalize it with the theory of evolution?

the church does not teach that you must choose either the Bible or the theory of evolution. Both can be true. Genesis is not taken as literally as some believe it is

 

[Beagle1]

We now have 60 pages of back and forth discussion on how Christians have experienced God in their own lives, the historical evidence of the Bible, the scientific conclusions that some of the most brilliant minds have discovered pointing to creation and not to mention the billions of miracles that have happened and continue to happen and people still want to come in this thread and say there isn’t proof. I truly find it baffling.

I get that you find it baffling, because you’re treating only the arguments and experiences that support your conclusion as valid, while dismissing or ignoring equally sincere and well-documented contrary evidence presented in numerous other posts.

Christians claim personal experience as proof. Nonbelievers point out that people of all religions claim just as vivid and life changing experiences of their own gods or spirits. You accept the Christian ones as real but explain away the others as false or mistaken. That’s not a neutral assessment of evidence, that’s confirmation bias.

Same with miracles: billions of claimed miracles exist across all faiths and cultures. The Christian ones are called “proof” and the rest “coincidence” or “demonic deception.”

It’s not that there’s no evidence, it’s that there’s conflicting evidence, and you’re only counting the evidence that agrees with your conclusion. That’s exactly what every other religion does too. Which is why nonbelievers don’t find it baffling at all.

 

[Beagle1]

Not at all actually. Religions say they're not God, and you have to earn salvation, you have to earn the right.
Christianity is Jesus Christ coming to you, meeting you where you are, telling you he is God, here to provide you salvation, if you choose to except that.

That sounds nice and comfy but it’s not actually the full picture. Christianity doesn’t just say “Jesus meets you where you are”, it also says that unless you accept him before you die, you don’t get salvation. That’s still a condition you have to meet, just like in other religions.

In Islam, God meets you where you are too but you must acknowledge Allah and Muhammad’s message to be saved. In many denominations of Christianity, you must acknowledge Jesus and the Gospel message to be saved. Swap the names and the requirement is almost identical.

Calling that “not earning salvation” is not accurate you’ve still got to do something specific to qualify.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I was raised Christian but this belief of humans having a soul & therefor superiority never jived with me. How am I supposed to rationalize it with the theory of evolution?

While i am not 100% sure where you are going mg with that thought process, it seems as if you are having a hard time reconciling some sort of superiority over all other animals due to a soul, when evolution says we are just cosmic goo and nothing special.

But you actually have it backwards. A soul is a gift from God, as are all the other creations in the world he gave us dominion over. As such we are not superior but we are to steward the gifts given appropriately (i am not stewarding mosquitos or ticks, i am killing every one i can).

Whereas evolution in the grandest sense says we are superior to the other animals because we a mind, rational thought, civility (as fleeting as it is), morality, etc etc. Because of our “survival of the fittest” we have evolved “higher” than all the other creatures and we are superior to them. You have to remember theory of evolution was used to say black people were inferior to white people, so as a theory it has no problem claiming any kind of superiority, genetic or moral, for humans over other creatures.

Hope this helps you. Happy to Discuss further

 

[Billinsd]

My hang up is more with the organized churches of today. Grew up Lutheran going to church every sunday and sunday school and vacation bible school whole deal. Seems both the lutheran and catholic are more worried about getting the donations than salvation as i get letters monthly from my childhood church about not getting any donations

Do i believe there is a god or some higher power kind off but then my analytic mind takes over and its a struggle to connect the dots.

Tithing is in the Bible. My Lutheran Pastors have explained that the purpose of it trusting in God to give until it is uncomfortable. The purpose is a greater trust in the lord. It’s a big leap of faith!! My Pastors have said our church is wealthy don’t give for the church, give for yourself and if you don’t it’s ok! Tithing is big with Lutherans, because Martin Luther emphasized it greatly. I like being Lutheran, because we believe we are ALL sinners unworthy of heaven, and there are no works or deeds to get us into Heaven. The ticket is belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior who died on the cross for our sins. Faith is not analytical by definition. There is plenty of vagueness and some mystery. You pick a Christian religion and/or church you are comfortable going to is my advice. Stay away from the cults and false prophets or you’ll go to Hell!!!! Bill