The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[dylanvb]

Anybody want to take a crack at this one?

I’ll crack it just give me a couple of minutes. Hard to keep up with this thread and life

 

[Shortschaf]

How would you all feel if someone wrote a book today containing words of god and claimed they were as spoken to them by god himself?

The church considers revelation complete with Jesus's ressurection as we await the second coming.

So, yes there are still modern miracles or divinely inspired peoples out there. But anything new that is written that contradicts revelation would be automatically rejected as "divinely inspired".

And anything written in support of revelation would be, at best, reviewed by the church and accepted as plausible or agreeable. More likely does not hit any Christian's radars because no one is actively trying to add more "pillars" of truth to the church. The truth is already there if you seek it.

 

[intunegp]

The church considers revelation complete with Jesus's ressurection as we await the second coming.

So, yes there are still modern miracles or divinely inspired peoples out there. But anything new that is written that contradicts revelation would be automatically rejected as "divinely inspired".

And anything written in support of revelation would be, at best, reviewed by the church and accepted as plausible or agreeable. More likely does not hit any Christian's radars because no one is actively trying to add more "pillars" of truth to the church. The truth is already there if you seek it.

Wouldn't a second coming begin with god/jesus speaking to someone though? Would we be waiting on water-to-wine type miracles to be definitively witnessed before anything new can be accepted?

 

[ianpadron]

Wouldn't a second coming begin with god/jesus speaking to someone though? Would we be waiting on water-to-wine type miracles to be definitively witnessed before anything new can be accepted?

No... the Old Testament prophets along with the Book of Revelation (last book of the New Testament) are remarkably concise on what to expect in the end of days. They are also incredibly consistent with each other...a point no non-believer can deny.

Many of the questions you've posed in this thread are addressed in depth in a study Bible, I highly recommend them to anyone with questions!

 

[molliesmaster]

Yes along with just punishment. If a daughter disobeyed her parent and ate what was forbidden in her household is it a just punishment by the father that she and her female offspring for every generation going forward be subjected to chid birth pain and subjugation by men. If you, a family member or friend engaged in adultery no matter what the circumstances would death be the just punishment. This should not even be worth a discussion in 2025 but unfortunately it is and the reason has more to do with believers than nonbelievers.

There ya go. And I see your point completely. But let me throw my Christian point of view at this and see if it at least makes sense? You don't have to agree with it.

The hangup about all mankind being ruined because of Adam and Eve's original sin makes a lot of sense. It doesn't seem fair at all. But have you lived a perfect life? You were given the opportunity from the time you were born. I haven't, not by a long shot. So whether it was Adam or Eve or whoever it was it still doesn't absolve me from my sins.

To your second point, some background on the people who this law was decreed to: the Israelites were a people set apart by God and given a land by Him to inhabit. They vowed their allegiance to God and desired to walk in his paths. God made it clear that if they were to allow sin to enter into their way of life and culture, it would ruin everything, and it did. These laws were decreed by God to keep a pure and Holy nation to himself. They were to be set apart from all other people groups. They were to treat sin with utter disdain and not have any part of it. These consequences spoke to the seriousness of sin entering into their way of life. I'm not aware of anyone discussing/advocating the death penalty for adultery at this point in our society, maybe Muslim countries?

But this all speaks to the much more bedrock issue of non-believers vs. believers. Non-believers, and I was one of them at one time, read the text and ultimately come across some kind of moral law or point that they don't agree with, and they then conclude that God is unfair/unjust/unkind/unloving, etc. They then go one step further to say that since He isn't all these things, then He can't be real.

My 6 year old daughter doesn't agree with every decision I make and every rule I give her. In fact, she probably comes to the conclusion sometimes that I am downright mean. That's ok. She doesn't understand everything. She doesn't understand that I want her to eat her dinner because it's nutritious and I care about her health. She doesn't understand that her early bed time is not to be cruel but because I know her growing body needs rest. She doesn't understand why she can't walk across the street by herself or drift off in a store without me. But she does these things because I am her father. And at the end of the day, when I tuck her in, she knows that I love her and that I always want the best for her because I demonstrate that time and time again.

My friend, the Bible in its entirety is God demonstrating his love for mankind over and over again. The culmination of that demonstration is sending his own Son, Jesus Christ, to die the death you and I deserved, to pay the penalty that you and I accrued, so that we may be in a relationship with Him, the best Father.

Why pay the penalty? Why not absolve everyone? God is just. You understand justice because you seek it yourself. And if God is the ultimate judge, he must judge justly. What you have in the Son, the ultimate demonstraion of God's love, is God stepping on our behalf to pay for the judgement we deserved. I would do that for my daughter. If you have kids, chances are you would too.

People who hear the gospel and reject it are the kids who look at their Father and deny the need for rescuing.

 

[rabbithuntr]

Wouldn't a second coming begin with god/jesus speaking to someone though? Would we be waiting on water-to-wine type miracles to be definitively witnessed before anything new can be accepted?

It depends on your eschatology but many would say the rapture is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation which ends with the messiah coming

 

[Hill Difficulty]

Anybody want to take a crack at this one?

These are the final 4 verses of the Bible.

Revelation 22:18-21

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

 

[intunegp]

Fair enough. At this point I feel I don't know enough about the bible or christian beliefs to be discussing it with the experts here so I'm going to see myself out. Thanks to those who engaged.

 

[go_deep]

Fair enough. At this point I feel I don't know enough about the bible or christian beliefs to be discussing it with the experts here so I'm going to see myself out. Thanks to those who engaged.

I want to say this. Unless someone here has a theology degree and spent their entire life dedicated to studying the Bible, no one here is an expert. Many of us are very excited about our faith, and the benefits of it in our lives, and sometimes that does not come across perfectly in text.

I hope no one feels run off, or belittled, we're all just trying our best to explain through one way communication.

Ever want to talk, shoot me a PM. I'd happily hear anything you got, and answer, or find the answers to any of it.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

Wouldn't a second coming begin with god/jesus speaking to someone though? Would we be waiting on water-to-wine type miracles to be definitively witnessed before anything new can be accepted?

I like this question. The Bible offers A LOT about what will unfold before Christ returns. Will provide a breakdown tonight if this thread is still active.

Until then, start here:

Paul is addressing the believers in Thessalonica, trying to calm their hysteria. 2,000 years after Paul's letter, the Man of Lawlessness has not been revealed. Believers in Christ will identify him while those who are deceived (strong delusion, fervor for falsehood/unrighteousness) will worship the MoL and persecute Christians and Jews. Also note the "rebellion" to precede the MoL.

2 Thessalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[rabbithuntr]

I don't believe God is like a prosecuting attorney. I think there are a few major laws that are important. I don't think I'm going to hell for not believing dinosaurs are only a few thousand years old. Most of the Bible I can't even understand, how should I be held accountable for that? I'm learning and trying. That's the best I can do. God promises we will all be judged fairly at the end and I believe that.

The Bible is clear on who is going to Heaven Mathew 22:37 Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
If you’ve done that your whole life you without fail you’re going to heaven. I haven’t thus I deserve hell. But God is not willing that any should perish. So he made a way to be saved.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrated His love for us that while we were sinners he died for us
John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".
Acts 16:31 “They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
Thus salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.
‭

 

[ianpadron]

There ya go. And I see your point completely. But let me throw my Christian point of view at this and see if it at least makes sense? You don't have to agree with it.

The hangup about all mankind being ruined because of Adam and Eve's original sin makes a lot of sense. It doesn't seem fair at all. But have you lived a perfect life? You were given the opportunity from the time you were born. I haven't, not by a long shot. So whether it was Adam or Eve or whoever it was it still doesn't absolve me from my sins.

To your second point, some background on the people who this law was decreed to: the Israelites were a people set apart by God and given a land by Him to inhabit. They vowed their allegiance to God and desired to walk in his paths. God made it clear that if they were to allow sin to enter into their way of life and culture, it would ruin everything, and it did. These laws were decreed by God to keep a pure and Holy nation to himself. They were to be set apart from all other people groups. They were to treat sin with utter disdain and not have any part of it. These consequences spoke to the seriousness of sin entering into their way of life. I'm not aware of anyone discussing/advocating the death penalty for adultery at this point in our society, maybe Muslim countries?

But this all speaks to the much more bedrock issue of non-believers vs. believers. Non-believers, and I was one of them at one time, read the text and ultimately come across some kind of moral law or point that they don't agree with, and they then conclude that God is unfair/unjust/unkind/unloving, etc. They then go one step further to say that since He isn't all these things, then He can't be real.

My 6 year old daughter doesn't agree with every decision I make and every rule I give her. In fact, she probably comes to the conclusion sometimes that I am downright mean. That's ok. She doesn't understand everything. She doesn't understand that I want her to eat her dinner because it's nutritious and I care about her health. She doesn't understand that her early bed time is not to be cruel but because I know her growing body needs rest. She doesn't understand why she can't walk across the street by herself or drift off in a store without me. But she does these things because I am her father. And at the end of the day, when I tuck her in, she knows that I love her and that I always want the best for her because I demonstrate that time and time again.

My friend, the Bible in its entirety is God demonstrating his love for mankind over and over again. The culmination of that demonstration is sending his own Son, Jesus Christ, to die the death you and I deserved, to pay the penalty that you and I accrued, so that we may be in a relationship with Him, the best Father.

Why pay the penalty? Why not absolve everyone? God is just. You understand justice because you seek it yourself. And if God is the ultimate judge, he must judge justly. What you have in the Son, the ultimate demonstraion of God's love, is God stepping on our behalf to pay for the judgement we deserved. I would do that for my daughter. If you have kids, chances are you would too.

People who hear the gospel and reject it are the kids who look at their Father and deny the need for rescuing.

Bravo my friend, a perfect analogy of our loving Father!

 

[dylanvb]

Fair enough. At this point I feel I don't know enough about the bible or christian beliefs to be discussing it with the experts here so I'm going to see myself out. Thanks to those who engaged.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Like what @go_deep said a majority of us are very passionate about our faith and even we ask questions all the time. I’ll be the first to admit I’m the furthest from being biblically literate but I pray for Gods guidance and wisdom daily and that He will reveal His ways to me daily. This journey isn’t something that gets answered in one day it’s a lifetime of discovering the truth behind the word of God. God reveals himself to us through His word. If you seek truth you will be surprised where the road takes you.

Sorry I didn’t get to answer the original question you had but I feel like the other guys answered in a good way in regards to Joseph smith

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Anybody want to take a crack at this one?

I will attempt a meager response to the question of "what if someone comes along and says they have received divine inspiration and wrote something" such as the book of mormon.

I believe there is plenty of divinely inspired writing since the Bible, many of the Saints and people we in the Church (collective church and individual denominations alike) cherish have written simply inspired words to help us through the life we toil.

One thing we have to do anytime something is presented as inspired by God is test it, according to the pillars of the Christianity. Do the words and the message follow along and help to define better what the relationship between God, the Son, the Holy Spirit and humans should be? Many times the words or message will simply be a re-interpretation of the Scriptures and thus not rise to the level of becoming new "truth". The fact is, nothing that has been written since the Bible has risen to the level of "new truth", it only explains existing truth in a slightly more understandable way. Unfortunately, in many cases what we call divinely inspired word simply twists truth and makes it more humanly in an effort to make it easier to swallow or easier to grasp, many times done in an effort to bring salvation but with a very worldly result.

Books like the Book of Mormon, or other "scriptures" written by cult leaders or whatever, are twists of some truth with many times falsehoods built in. Anything that detracts from the Holy Bible is "non-truth" and as such should be rejected as pure heresy and falsity. The Book of Mormon is clever, but does not stand the test of Christian Truth. As such, it is easy to see this "inspired writing" must be rejected from a Christian standpoint.

 

[Yoder]

The Bible is clear on who is going to Heaven Mathew 22:37 Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
If you’ve done that your whole life you without fail you’re going to heaven. I haven’t thus I deserve hell. But God is not willing that any should perish. So he made a way to be saved.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrated His love for us that while we were sinners he died for us
John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".
Acts 16:31 “They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
Thus salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.
‭

I believe all of that. I also believe God makes exception for those who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. I thought the Apostle Paul even mentioned it but I can't remember where. God knows everyone's heart. He knows those who would have followed Jesus if given the knowledge of him. Do you think unbaptized infants that die go to hell? I sure don't. I guess nobody knows for sure.

 

[Yoder]

Fair enough. At this point I feel I don't know enough about the bible or christian beliefs to be discussing it with the experts here so I'm going to see myself out. Thanks to those who engaged.

Check out Father Mike on YouTube. He's a young Catholic Priest. Super upbeat, very knowledgeable and down to earth. I listen to his Podcast every morning. He reads the Bible for about 15-20 minutes then explains it all. He really helped me a lot.

 

[rabbithuntr]

I believe all of that. I also believe God makes exception for those who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. I thought the Apostle Paul even mentioned it but I can't remember where. God knows everyone's heart. He knows those who would have followed Jesus if given the knowledge of him. Do you think unbaptized infants that die go to hell? I sure don't. I guess nobody knows for sure.

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬
Even those that have not heard the word will not be saved. The Bible also says if they truly seem him they will find him. However I don’t believe you children go to hell. David said he would see his baby son again. I also wonder if mentally handicapped people would be in the same category.
“But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.””
‭‭2 Samuel‬ ‭12‬:‭23‬ ‭

Edit: the Bible says that baptism is a symbol of salvation but not necessary for salvation and cannot save you.

 

[molliesmaster]

I believe all of that. I also believe God makes exception for those who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. I thought the Apostle Paul even mentioned it but I can't remember where. God knows everyone's heart. He knows those who would have followed Jesus if given the knowledge of him. Do you think unbaptized infants that die go to hell? I sure don't. I guess nobody knows for sure.

Check out Romans 2:12-16.

I feel like it is talked about somewhere else too but I can’t recall it right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jason Snyder]

[

It's those people's actions when not in church that has me think like that.

Absolutely fair point. I am challenged continually by behavior I witness, from people who profess to follow Jesus. At times it absolutely confounds me, and it something believers should be acutely aware of.

We are all hypocrites. Every single one of us. We aren’t perfect and we will sin. A true believer should recognize the sin and hypocrisy and repent of it.

It’s incredibly challenging to resist worldly thoughts, feelings and emotions as I strive every day to look at the world through Jesus’s eyes and act accordingly.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Regarding children and mentally challenged….

The verse uses the term “understood” in there. So it is safe to say people who could not understand the divinity of God are not judged on salvation thru Jesus and His holy blood sacrifice, but by the loving mercy of God. We have to remember that while God is just, He is also merciful. He is the judge and the redeemer. I will let Him alone determine who makes it to heaven and eternity with Him.

But for those if us capable of understanding, we are all witnesses to the truth. If we reject the truth, we can be damned to eternal torment. Again, i am not the judge so
I wont say for certain that is the case, but Jesus was pretty clear on the matter thru his own words.