The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

I don't oppose religion because I don't believe in it, I oppose it because it is evil.



Do you think children understand the context?
right... because a faith that calls for you to love one another and feed the poor and take care of the sick and needy and to protect the innocent.. yeah thats super evil!

Truly, i think you oppose it because you dont understand it and in the ignorance, are scared of it. you want to reject the idea of eternal hell and torment because it scares you. you reject the idea of eternal love and perfection because that also scares you. its okay to be scare.. but dont project that on to other who have the courage and strength to embrace that.

maybe you see those who are Christians who are happy, and you dont want that. but you could absolutely try. I find it funny that you are on here arguing with people and calling something evil that has helped so many people. The people you are calling evil are not repaying you with the same insults, merely saying you dont understand. so really whos the "evil" here? the people wanting to do better and love? or you, the guys who condemning all that as evil and disrupting a conversation you dont understand and dont want to be part of? whos really evil here?
 
I asked akcabin, and don't assume I don't understand something because I oppose it. I oppose it exactly because I do understand it.

If the point is to respect god, then why not just call it respect? Fear is fear, and by using that word you instil it in other gullible people.

Why do you feel you need a 'savior'?
The questions asked in this comment alone define that you in fact you do not understand any of it.

why call it fear? because thats the traditional word and in the context its used, its accurate.

why do you need a savior? are you kidding? this question alone shows how much learning you need to do on the subject Mr. Perfect.
 
What's the gist of this? Simply, is it saying you can't follow his moral teachings if he was just a man because that would imply all the other stuff he said about being the son of God contaminated his credibility?

The paradigm is that no one can ignore the claims of Christ. There is no middle position - Jesus was either a lunatic or God.

In John 7:17 Jesus says, “If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.” For me, this was a painful threat to my self-determinism and freedom - Jesus is such an authority that if we surrender to the truth of what he says, we must submit to reality vs continuing to create our own.

We all live according to a story that is true, or a story that is false.
 
Fair enough.

Jesus said he was the son of God, that he would die and be raised again, and that salvation only came through him. What do you make of that?

I will freely admit I am a doubter, and I should be specific by saying I am NOT a denier.

I do believe Jesus was a man. I believe he was killed on the cross and placed in a tomb. I believe John absolutely smoked Peter in a race to the tomb. And I guess I do believe Jesus was then found to be alive and was alive for some time. So I suppose I do believe in some sort of miracle. I am uncomfortable extrapolating belief in one miracle to belief in all miracles. I believe man is fallible, and that man may have corrupted the translation or transcription or storage of the word of God over time. I don't mean that to say intentional corruption, but just that it isn't perfect (but not that it needs to be). I struggle with what is next for me, and I would like something to be next for me.
 
I believe man is fallible, and that man may have corrupted the translation or transcription or storage of the word of God over time. I don't mean that to say intentional corruption, but just that it isn't perfect (but not that it needs to be).
Misquoting Jesus The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart Ehrman, is a great book about that very subject.

Edit: I'll add that Ehrman's personal journey is an intersting one in and of itself as well.

 
I will freely admit I am a doubter, and I should be specific by saying I am NOT a denier.

I do believe Jesus was a man. I believe he was killed on the cross and placed in a tomb. I believe John absolutely smoked Peter in a race to the tomb. And I guess I do believe Jesus was then found to be alive and was alive for some time. So I suppose I do believe in some sort of miracle. I am uncomfortable extrapolating belief in one miracle to belief in all miracles. I believe man is fallible, and that man may have corrupted the translation or transcription or storage of the word of God over time. I don't mean that to say intentional corruption, but just that it isn't perfect (but not that it needs to be). I struggle with what is next for me, and I would like something to be next for me.

I respect the heck out of that, and I appreciate you being honest about where you are at.

In terms of the text being corrupted (intentionally or unintentionally), the Bible has gone under a lot of scrutiny in that regard; it's called textual criticism. What you may not know is that there is a mountain of manuscripts dating back to as early as the 2nd century. Copies of early manuscripts have been found across a vast range of locations and periods. Scholars take these texts, date them, and then use them to compare what is said to discern what, if anything, has changed.

I'll show you an example of one that is well-known. John 7 Link If you look down at the bottom of the page you will read where a portion of what was known as John 7 into chapter 8 has an [The earliest manuscripts do not include 7:53–8:11.] note in it. That story had been in the gospel of John for a long time and a lot of people quoted it, some still do. But because of textual criticism and discovery of earlier manuscripts, it was determined that this story was not in the earliest manuscripts. That transparency should at least put you at some ease.

In terms of sheer volume of text scholars can use to compare and discern what is valid and what is not, there are 5800 Greek manuscripts, 10000 Latin manuscripts, and 9300 manuscripts of other languages. Being able to compare these manuscripts that span across multiple periods of time, languages, and regions it would be pretty easy to pick out things that were added in a certain area because later copies in the area would show the same addition, but not copies of the text that were in another region. Does that make sense?

That's a lot of text that corroborates the same story over and over again. If you want to dig into it further, let me know and I'll give you some links to some people who are way smarter than me who have done the work.

You're right, man is fallible. But Jesus claimed to be more than a man. And if He really did rise from the dead that is something to definitely look into.


One of the biggest convincers of Jesus being who he said he was to me was Saul's story, later to be known as the Apostle Paul. If you don't know about Paul, he was an up and comer in the Jewish teacher's (Pharisees). He studied hard and was rising through the political ladder. He was actually one of the early persecuters of Christians in Jerusalem. Eager to please the Jewish leaders, he asks for permission to go and round up some Christ-followers in a town called Damascus. He was granted that permission but on his travels to Damascus he has a run in with the risen Lord. Read it here: Link

Now, something happened that day, something real, because Saul gave up everything he had going for him to follow this Jesus character.
 
And to follow on with what was stated well above, the early church was made up pf people who were persecuted and killed for belief in the Christ, and not just the person jesus, but the risen Savior Christ.

Would you willingly die for something you were skeptical about or heard just through the rumor mill? Many of these people who were killed were witnesses to the risen Christ. The Church was not formed by some rumor-mongering band of people who took a charismatic teacher and watched him die and then ran with a story none of them even understood until after the resurrection. The early Church was founded on the very real, very tangible, Truth of the ultimate blood sacrifice for our sins by the Son of God.

There is a very real but sort of scary proposition that can make you believe in the Truth....in a quiet place, try to eliminate distractions and ask for the voices in your head to silenced, ask God to show you Himself. It may come in a small whisper, it may come in some grand portrait of nature, it may come in a dream or even through another person. But if you ask, He will reveal Himself, if you are paying attention.
 
Some examples…

Do I actually believe some people crumbled the stone walls of a city by blowing trumpets? No.

Do I actually believe some people lived to be 400 years old as we know it today? No.

Do I actually believe the entire world was flooded and killed every single soul save some people aboard a giant ship hoarding some of every species on earth? No.

But do I believe David could have killed one giant man with a single throw of a slingshot? Yes that seems quite feasible.

Do I believe a man names Moses led a large group of people out of Egypt and to freedom? Yes, feasible.

Hitting a rock with a stick and making water? No.

It has been difficult for me to reconcile what I believe to be true with what I don’t believe to be true. It seems I fit in no where. And I think it’s because we as people have an incomplete and flawed understanding of God, be it through no fault of our own.
 
Some examples…

Do I actually believe some people crumbled the stone walls of a city by blowing trumpets? No.

Do I actually believe some people lived to be 400 years old as we know it today? No.

Do I actually believe the entire world was flooded and killed every single soul save some people aboard a giant ship hoarding some of every species on earth? No.

But do I believe David could have killed one giant man with a single throw of a slingshot? Yes that seems quite feasible.

Do I believe a man names Moses led a large group of people out of Egypt and to freedom? Yes, feasible.

Hitting a rock with a stick and making water? No.

It has been difficult for me to reconcile what I believe to be true with what I don’t believe to be true. It seems I fit in no where. And I think it’s because we as people have an incomplete and flawed understanding of God, be it through no fault of our own.


So what would make you believe? This is a curiosity question not a trick.


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Dos Perros et Al,

The concept of miracles is tough to swallow for those of us in todays world. Here is my best way to explain the concept of miracles:

God created the world (universe) in a manner that has rules and “laws” that allow for certain processes to facilitate life. Without those laws and processes, we would not he able to live on earth, but these laws and processes are not necessary for God to exist. He created them, for our benefit.

At times, God, being all powerful, can bend or break the laws of the earth to create benefit for us, mainly to show us or reveal to us His glory. Taking the examples that Jesus performed in the New testament, He almost always said he did those so the glory of His father would be known or seen. Jesus did not perform miracles all the time, and there are times when He could have performed a miracle but didnt (while on the cross or during His torture) because it wasnt in the will of God the Father and the resultant effect was greater for the Kingdom of God (think for a second what would have happened IF Jesus called those angels to remove Him from the cross and save his human body). I difress a little…

The concept of miracles is not much different from the rules a good parent (God) has with their children (physics, biology, etc). Almost all parents have rules or processes that govern their children; bedtimes, eating good food, being active, etc…that Re followed really well.

Is it a miracle if a parent allows a child a once a year break from their bedtime to stay up late and watch their fave football team play in the championship? Is that action not done out of love and to create a closer relationship between parent and child?

As such, we should not expect miracles to occur often. If they did, the rules and processes we live by on earth wouldnt be what they are. But the possibility exists where an all powerful God can bend the rules once in a while for a rock to spill water, the red sea to part, water to turn to wine, or for human body resurrection from the dead.

If you believe in Jesus and believe he rose from the dead, then the possibility, albeit rare, has to exist for miracles to occur.

I have seen miracles occur, and happy to share the most recent. But wont bug up this post any more with the details unless people want to hear about it.
 
I said you didn’t have to agree with me.

But let’s not downplay what Adam and Eve did to make it seem as though they only ate some special apple. The fruit was from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” God warned them that if they ate of that fruit they would surely die.

And I’m not cherry picking anything, the synopsis of the Bible is that there is a loving God who desperately wants to have a relationship with you. We, us, mankind continues to screw that up because of our selfishness, pride, and downright stupidity. What more mercy do you want? God has literally paid the ultimate price for you already?
The history of Israel is a nation who received everything from God for nothing at all. They weren’t special. They didn’t earn anything. They were a small group of slaves. God gave them everything. And what do they do? They constantly walk away from Him, whore themselves out to false gods and other cultures. What happens? God punishes them, yes! But he takes them back and blesses them over and over again. And even at their worst, He is constantly trying to restore them.

You’ve got this narrative in your head that God is out to get you. And I get it, I was there too one time. I really was. God was an angry, wrathful, vindictive dictator to me, so I know what you are saying and thinking. But I was wrong. So very wrong.

I don’t punish my daughter because I’m angry with her or because I want to see her miserable. I punish my daughter because her bad behavior will lead to more hardship in her life.

Does God punish bad, sinful things. Yes. Does he wish to see you miserable not at all.

Consider these words of Jesus:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!” Matthew 23:37

I really can relate to how you feel and how you perceive God. I had those same thoughts. But I was wrong.


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Ok, Eve ate a very symbolic apple and not only was she punished but every other woman who came after her was. Women born thousands of generations later are still subject to the same punishment solely because they were born a woman. That strikes you as fair and just?

You continue to avoid my point on the Bible. I understand many passages in the Bible demonstrate God’s love for mankind. But there are also instances in the Bible where God is vengeful and wrathful. Is that not true, am I making that up? Killing Israelites for adultery is indicative of a loving God? How so?

I am not involved in a personal battle with God. I know it is hard for you to comprehend but that is just a non issue for me. I have no dog in that fight.

I also don’t think you understood my point about your daughter and punishment. I understand bad behavior needs to be punished, the issue is what is a just punishment, i.e. should a woman be killed for committing adultery or should she be punished for bad behavior she had nothing to do with that occurred thousands of years before.

The Israelites who were killed for committing adultery could not be taken back and blessed.
 
If God is a wrathful, vindictive, hateful God then why Jesus? If all He wants to do is oppress people and smite them and cause them harm, why Jesus?


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Once again you are missing my point. I never said God was solely wrathful but that there are numerous instances of a wrathful God in the Bible that are conveniently ignored by believers.
 
God made the tree of knowledge for what reason? He then made evil snakes and taught one to talk. When Eve was tempted she should have said, "OMG how did you learn to talk?" But she didn't, so the omnipotent God who already knew what would happen punished her and all her descendants. We can explain this with the catch-all, God works in mysterious ways.
Not to mention that the tree was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" meaning that, prior to eating the fruit, they didn't have that knowledge.

It's like throwing a toddler out into the street because they don't know calculus.
 
Ok, Eve ate a very symbolic apple and not only was she punished but every other woman who came after her was. Women born thousands of generations later are still subject to the same punishment solely because they were born a woman. That strikes you as fair and just?

You continue to avoid my point on the Bible. I understand many passages in the Bible demonstrate God’s love for mankind. But there are also instances in the Bible where God is vengeful and wrathful. Is that not true, am I making that up? Killing Israelites for adultery is indicative of a loving God? How so?

I am not involved in a personal battle with God. I know it is hard for you to comprehend but that is just a non issue for me. I have no dog in that fight.

I also don’t think you understood my point about your daughter and punishment. I understand bad behavior needs to be punished, the issue is what is a just punishment, i.e. should a woman be killed for committing adultery or should she be punished for bad behavior she had nothing to do with that occurred thousands of years before.

The Israelites who were killed for committing adultery could not be taken back and blessed.



And I’m the one cherry picking? You see that right?

Eve wasn’t the only one punished for their actions. Adam was cursed. And so was the snake. So was the land. So were the animals. Because evil/sin had entered into what was made as pure and perfect.
Romans 8 says that whole creation waits with eager longing for the redemption of the children of God.

Who’s hiding that God is wrathful? Thank God for his wrath. Thank God for his vengeance. Don’t you believe in justice? Aren’t you the one telling me all about fairness? Tell me, do the judges often ask criminals what their punishment should be? Then why do you feel entitled to determine what is fair for God to do? Are you perfect? Do you understand how the stars were made? Did you speak the earth into existence? Do you uphold the universe with your words? Because that’s the God I serve and believe in. And, yes, thank Him that He is vengeful and wrathful and that justice will be served. But, one more time, for the people sitting in the back of the room, God is a loving God who has made a way for you and the rest of everyone else in here to be saved. You didn’t earn it, you don’t deserve it, but it’s there for you because He loves you.


And I’m the one cherry picking!? Give me a break.


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Not to mention that the tree was "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" meaning that, prior to eating the fruit, they didn't have that knowledge.

It's like throwing a toddler out into the street because they don't know calculus.
More like a teenager that is fully provided for, fully understanding what their instructions are, and still disobeying their parents


Ok, Eve ate a very symbolic apple and not only was she punished but every other woman who came after her was. Women born thousands of generations later are still subject to the same punishment solely because they were born a woman. That strikes you as fair and just?

You continue to avoid my point on the Bible. I understand many passages in the Bible demonstrate God’s love for mankind. But there are also instances in the Bible where God is vengeful and wrathful. Is that not true, am I making that up? Killing Israelites for adultery is indicative of a loving God? How so?

I am not involved in a personal battle with God. I know it is hard for you to comprehend but that is just a non issue for me. I have no dog in that fight.

I also don’t think you understood my point about your daughter and punishment. I understand bad behavior needs to be punished, the issue is what is a just punishment, i.e. should a woman be killed for committing adultery or should she be punished for bad behavior she had nothing to do with that occurred thousands of years before.

The Israelites who were killed for committing adultery could not be taken back and blessed.
God gave us our lives. Our very existence is being constantly willed by Him. We will NEVER be able to repay the Father for our creation or the Son for the promise of eternal life.

So no... I do not think this life is fair and just at all. We receive far more than our fair share if we follow the right path.
 
What I find interesting is we all follow rules everyday, hundreds, if not thousands of rules, we never set the guidelines for, or the punishment for, but we just except them as the way it is. Why are all those rules made? For the betterment of our society, or the safety of ourselves, or those around us, and we have no problem blindly following all these rules.
Driving laws, pay bills on time, show up to work or jobs on time, they all have consequences if we don't follow all this rules, so why shouldn't there be moral laws with consequences? I know people that have destroyed themselves not following the moral laws God set before us.
So you don't like the punishment for adultery a few thousand years ago? Adultery destroys families, it destroys everyone way beyond the 2 people involved, it was and still is horrific.

For example, just to the east of me a wife was cheating on her husband, the husband found out and confronted the other guy, the other guy shot the husband, dead. So here's a mom with a couple kids, who brought the murderer of her husband into their house. Think her kids will ever see her the same? Think those kids would have rather had their dad alive more than their mom needed to get laid and ruin their entire family?

While you can disagree with God in the old testament, he was a just God, he was revealing himself to the people and showing that everyone was to be treated the same, level playing field for all, and bad choices had consequences, that had to because your bad choice didn't just effect you, it had a ripple effect and had an impact on lots of people around you.
 
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