The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Farmer9770]

Some great conversations. I remember my grandpa had one of his friends tell him he was foolish for following Jesus, that everything was over you just went to sleep when you die. My grandpa looked at him and said if you’re right we’re both ok, if I’m right you will be sorry for eternity.
Jesus said that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that he is Lord, and he also said on that day there will be those that say Lord, Lord, and he will say I never knew you.
I have questioned my belief this week after suddenly losing my wife who is one of the most faithful and devoted Christian I’ve ever known, It doesn’t make sense. But it’s Gods plan. Am I so arrogant to think I know what’s better than the creator of the universe? But Even Jesus cried out, Lord why have you forsaken me? Which is honestly how I’ve felt all week. But God is just and his plan is better than ours. I can’t explain a lot of it but I have faith if I stay the course and be faithful, he will fulfill his promise and I will see my beautiful wife again in heaven.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I am so sorry about the loss of your wife. You have the right attitude, but don’t let a feeling you need to be faithful to God’s plan prevent you from properly grieving. The most important thing to remember is God has grieved His son, and Jesus experienced grief as a human, leaning on them and praying for peace is about all you can ask for in these early stages. It is normal to get angry at some point, so do not let that waver your faith. Remember the footprints poem, when you think He isnt there he is actually carrying you thru the hard stuff. He is always there.

 

[BTH]

If by “sticking to the spirit of Christianity” you mean accepting that we have no hope apart from Christ and the free gift of Salvation that he offers as a result of what he did for us on the cross and His resurrection, then I am with you 100%
Sadly, some believe the “spirit of Christianity” is moralism, and nothing could be further from what He Taught or the sacrifice He made. Jesus is either Lord, liar, or lunatic… I am thankful to call him Lord.

A pastor I listen to all the time from North coast church in San Diego named Chris Brown says that same thing. He’s either Lord, liar or lunatic. I’m also thankful to call Him Lord!


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[Beagle1]

There ya go. And I see your point completely. But let me throw my Christian point of view at this and see if it at least makes sense? You don't have to agree with it.

The hangup about all mankind being ruined because of Adam and Eve's original sin makes a lot of sense. It doesn't seem fair at all. But have you lived a perfect life? You were given the opportunity from the time you were born. I haven't, not by a long shot. So whether it was Adam or Eve or whoever it was it still doesn't absolve me from my sins.

To your second point, some background on the people who this law was decreed to: the Israelites were a people set apart by God and given a land by Him to inhabit. They vowed their allegiance to God and desired to walk in his paths. God made it clear that if they were to allow sin to enter into their way of life and culture, it would ruin everything, and it did. These laws were decreed by God to keep a pure and Holy nation to himself. They were to be set apart from all other people groups. They were to treat sin with utter disdain and not have any part of it. These consequences spoke to the seriousness of sin entering into their way of life. I'm not aware of anyone discussing/advocating the death penalty for adultery at this point in our society, maybe Muslim countries?

But this all speaks to the much more bedrock issue of non-believers vs. believers. Non-believers, and I was one of them at one time, read the text and ultimately come across some kind of moral law or point that they don't agree with, and they then conclude tha They then go one step further to say that since He isn't all these things, then He can't be real.

My 6 year old daughter doesn't agree with every decision I make and every rule I give her. In fact, she probably comes to the conclusion sometimes that I am downright mean. That's ok. She doesn't understand everything. She doesn't understand that I want her to eat her dinner because it's nutritious and I care about her health. She doesn't understand that her early bed time is not to be cruel but because I know her growing body needs rest. She doesn't understand why she can't walk across the street by herself or drift off in a store without me. But she does these things because I am her father. And at the end of the day, when I tuck her in, she knows that I love her and that I always want the best for her because I demonstrate that time and time again.

My friend, the Bible in its entirety is God demonstrating his love for mankind over and over again. The culmination of that demonstration is sending his own Son, Jesus Christ, to die the death you and I deserved, to pay the penalty that you and I accrued, so that we may be in a relationship with Him, the best Father.

Why pay the penalty? Why not absolve everyone? God is just. You understand justice because you seek it yourself. And if God is the ultimate judge, he must judge justly. What you have in the Son, the ultimate demonstraion of God's love, is God stepping on our behalf to pay for the judgement we deserved. I would do that for my daughter. If you have kids, chances are you would too.

People who hear the gospel and reject it are the kids who look at their Father and deny the need for rescuing.

The punishment for Eve’s original sin doesn’t seem fair because it isn’t fair. As to you tying that in to sinful behavior by you and I you lost me there. What do you think a just punishment should be for eating a forbidden fruit?

I am familiar with the history of the Israelites. The bottom line still is sentencing a person to death for adultery is not indicative of a fair, just and loving God. How can you disagree with that? What do you think the punishment for adultery should have been for the Israelites?

Cherry picking seems quite a bit more prevalent on the believer side. Go back through the posts in this thread and look at the Bible verses cited time after time to prove God is real. I only entered the adultery discussion after it was brought up by a believer to support his belief.

You sound like a loving caring father who understands kids will make mistakes and violate parental rules. But the important issue above and beyond that is as with the Israelites what is the just punishment for breaking those rules.

As to the Bible demonstrating God's love for mankind you are cherry picking now. The Bible contains both numerous instances of God’s love for mankind and numerous instances where God is depicted as vengeful and wrathful. That is the reality of the Bible. You can’t just embrace what supports your position and do a Sgt Schultz “I see nothing “ as to what doesn’t if you want your position to be taken seriously.

 

[insanelupus]

@intunegp

Ever want to talk, shoot me a PM. I'd happily hear anything you got, and answer, or find the answers to any of it.

I'll echo go_deep's offer and have made similar statements in this thread. If you have honest questions or wish to have discussions regarding the Christian faith which are sincere, I'm willing to engage as well.

I'm no expert, have no theological degree, but have been involved in ministry helping folks where I can for a while. My best, honest answer may very well be, "I don't know", but if there's a sincere desire to search, I'll help if I can. Shoot me a PM.

And that offer is extended to others as well.

We may not reach the same conclusions. But if the desire and search/ question is sincere (I've done all the arguing in my life I ever want to do) we can have a conversation. Again, the best answer I may be able to provide is "I don't know", but I'll certainly try to help if I can.

 

[molliesmaster]

The punishment for Eve’s original sin doesn’t seem fair because it isn’t fair. As to you tying that in to sinful behavior by you and I you lost me there. What do you think a just punishment should be for eating a forbidden fruit?

I am familiar with the history of the Israelites. The bottom line still is sentencing a person to death for adultery is not indicative of a fair, just and loving God. How can you disagree with that? What do you think the punishment for adultery should have been for the Israelites?

Cherry picking seems quite a bit more prevalent on the believer side. Go back through the posts in this thread and look at the Bible verses cited time after time to prove God is real. I only entered the adultery discussion after it was brought up by a believer to support his belief.

You sound like a loving caring father who understands kids will make mistakes and violate parental rules. But the important issue above and beyond that is as with the Israelites what is the just punishment for breaking those rules.

As to the Bible demonstrating God's love for mankind you are cherry picking now. The Bible contains both numerous instances of God’s love for mankind and numerous instances where God is depicted as vengeful and wrathful. That is the reality of the Bible. You can’t just embrace what supports your position and do a Sgt Schultz “I see nothing “ as to what doesn’t if you want your position to be taken seriously.

I said you didn’t have to agree with me.

But let’s not downplay what Adam and Eve did to make it seem as though they only ate some special apple. The fruit was from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” God warned them that if they ate of that fruit they would surely die.

And I’m not cherry picking anything, the synopsis of the Bible is that there is a loving God who desperately wants to have a relationship with you. We, us, mankind continues to screw that up because of our selfishness, pride, and downright stupidity. What more mercy do you want? God has literally paid the ultimate price for you already?
The history of Israel is a nation who received everything from God for nothing at all. They weren’t special. They didn’t earn anything. They were a small group of slaves. God gave them everything. And what do they do? They constantly walk away from Him, whore themselves out to false gods and other cultures. What happens? God punishes them, yes! But he takes them back and blesses them over and over again. And even at their worst, He is constantly trying to restore them.

You’ve got this narrative in your head that God is out to get you. And I get it, I was there too one time. I really was. God was an angry, wrathful, vindictive dictator to me, so I know what you are saying and thinking. But I was wrong. So very wrong.

I don’t punish my daughter because I’m angry with her or because I want to see her miserable. I punish my daughter because her bad behavior will lead to more hardship in her life.

Does God punish bad, sinful things. Yes. Does he wish to see you miserable not at all.

Consider these words of Jesus:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!” Matthew 23:37

I really can relate to how you feel and how you perceive God. I had those same thoughts. But I was wrong.


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[molliesmaster]

The punishment for Eve’s original sin doesn’t seem fair because it isn’t fair. As to you tying that in to sinful behavior by you and I you lost me there. What do you think a just punishment should be for eating a forbidden fruit?

I am familiar with the history of the Israelites. The bottom line still is sentencing a person to death for adultery is not indicative of a fair, just and loving God. How can you disagree with that? What do you think the punishment for adultery should have been for the Israelites?

Cherry picking seems quite a bit more prevalent on the believer side. Go back through the posts in this thread and look at the Bible verses cited time after time to prove God is real. I only entered the adultery discussion after it was brought up by a believer to support his belief.

You sound like a loving caring father who understands kids will make mistakes and violate parental rules. But the important issue above and beyond that is as with the Israelites what is the just punishment for breaking those rules.

As to the Bible demonstrating God's love for mankind you are cherry picking now. The Bible contains both numerous instances of God’s love for mankind and numerous instances where God is depicted as vengeful and wrathful. That is the reality of the Bible. You can’t just embrace what supports your position and do a Sgt Schultz “I see nothing “ as to what doesn’t if you want your position to be taken seriously.

If God is a wrathful, vindictive, hateful God then why Jesus? If all He wants to do is oppress people and smite them and cause them harm, why Jesus?


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[Farmer9770]

There is also a big difference between old and New Testament as far as God being wrathful. The Old Testament he had them kill their enemies. The Israelites had certain rules to follow to keep them pure. The old mosaic covenant was abolished with Jesus death. With Jesus death salvation became available to everyone, and he preached love and forgiveness. Everyone has to give an account for our sins but we have a redeemer we can run to.

 

[go_deep]

I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
John 13:34

 

[Nicaburns]

I will attempt an analogy that I will admit is fallible:
If you had access to an incredible piece of hunting property but the owner had one buck that he told you not to shoot, you would likely understand his requirement. If you shot that buck, you would likely lose access to ever hunt that property again and you would most likely understand that consequence. Your kids may one day look back and say that it was unfair that they lost access due to your actions and the more generations that passed, those descendants may feel more and more like their loss of access was unfair but we would likely still know that the choice to break the owners wishes would carry consequences.
Now suppose that landowner had installed one gate by which you could still enter and hunt. He set the placement of that gate and posted the combination to the lock on a sign next to the gate so that anyone could enter. Not every combination would work… only the one he posted. We would all think that was a more than fair response and be very thankful that he allowed ANY access to his property… after all… it is HIS property. He has every right to make the rules and he doesn’t have to let anyone hunt there.
If someone told you that it was unfair that there was only one gate, you would scoff at them.
If someone told you that it was unfair that only one person got to control the rules, you would scoff at them.
If someone told you that it was unfair for him to have ever had rules which resulted in the gate solution, you would scoff at them.
If there is someone who told you that they didn’t want to hunt that property because they didn’t like the rules then you, and they, would likely accept that the consequence is they will never have access to what is beyond the gate. (Even if their view is that the gate is a hoax and there is nothing worth hunting there.)

Granted, that is a broken analogy. But, Christians believe that God created a world intended for an unbroken relationship with a God. We believe that man made a choice to break the one request made by God and that the consequence was a future where they were exposed to a world which was no longer protected from despair, decay, and decline. We further believe that He made a way for us to have a path to a future where there will be a new heaven and earth that once again restores a chance to experience life without those consequences through the price paid by Jesus.
Granted further, we do not blame current decline or the misdeeds of broken people on God. We look to Him as gracious for allowing man a perfect world in the beginning, we understand that there are consequences which impact the world as we know it, and we are thankful for the relationship we have because of the gate He created in the person of and sacrifice of Jesus.
So, I agree with the OP when he quoted Colossians 1:13-14 “He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His Love in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.”

 

[dylanvb]

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭23 NKJV.

We are all condemned to death.

“But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭20‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Who are we to question what is right and just?

I do not understand half of the things that go on in the world or why good people have bad things happen to them but no one is truly “good” except for Jesus Christ. We have all sinned and we all fall short therefore we all need the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[brca005]

A pastor I listen to all the time from North coast church in San Diego named Chris Brown says that same thing. He’s either Lord, liar or lunatic. I’m also thankful to call Him Lord!


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Lord, liar or lunatic is also a chapter in “More Than a Carpenter”, which I thought was a great book.

“The Case for Christ” was delivered yesterday so I’ll start that today or tomorrow.

 

[Hill Difficulty]

A pastor I listen to all the time from North coast church in San Diego named Chris Brown says that same thing. He’s either Lord, liar or lunatic. I’m also thankful to call Him Lord!


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CS Lewis - Mere Christianity

I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic– on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg– or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

 

[Kenn]

I said you didn’t have to agree with me.

But let’s not downplay what Adam and Eve did to make it seem as though they only ate some special apple. The fruit was from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” God warned them that if they ate of that fruit they would surely die.

God made the tree of knowledge for what reason? He then made evil snakes and taught one to talk. When Eve was tempted she should have said, "OMG how did you learn to talk?" But she didn't, so the omnipotent God who already knew what would happen punished her and all her descendants. We can explain this with the catch-all, God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Dos Perros]

CS Lewis - Mere Christianity

I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic– on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg– or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

What's the gist of this? Simply, is it saying you can't follow his moral teachings if he was just a man because that would imply all the other stuff he said about being the son of God contaminated his credibility?

 

[molliesmaster]

God made the tree of knowledge for what reason? He then made evil snakes and taught one to talk. When Eve was tempted she should have said, "OMG how did you learn to talk?" But she didn't, so the omnipotent God who already knew what would happen punished her and all her descendants. We can explain this with the catch-all, God works in mysterious ways.

Or you could say that God created mankind with free choice.

We like to blame God for everything, but it seems like we never want to accept responsibility for our own actions.

.

 

[Schmo]

God made the tree of knowledge for what reason? He then made evil snakes and taught one to talk. When Eve was tempted she should have said, "OMG how did you learn to talk?" But she didn't, so the omnipotent God who already knew what would happen punished her and all her descendants. We can explain this with the catch-all, God works in mysterious ways.

No, He wanted man to serve Him out of free will, choice, and reciprocated love. Eve had a choice, and she chose to disobey. Is that so hard to grasp? The snake was Satan. God didn’t cause it to talk to her or tempt her, but He allowed it, just as He allows us the freedom of choice, and He allows us to be tempted.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Forced to fear and forced to love, quite the predicament.

no one is forcing anyone into anything. you can choose to not fear or love, though i doubt you understand what this fear is referring to. its all on you, God gave man free will so that man can choose to love God or not. Dont love Him if you dont want to, just know that every choice has a consequence, good or bad.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

I don't quite understand how being forced to fear a celestial dictator leads to love for my fellow man. Surely I don't need the former to be able to incorporate the latter.

how are you forced? you clearly dont have that fear so what the problem? its all a choice and no one is dictating anything. you can hate God and love your fellow man all you want. Though, i would say you should maybe look into what "fearing the Lord" really means. its probably not anywhere close to what you believe it to mean.

God's greatest gift to man was free will and His love. you're free to not love Him back, but He will always love you. pretty good deal if you ask me.

 

[NVUplandHunter]

Psalms 34:4 NASB1995
[4] I sought the Lord, and He answered me, And delivered me from all my fears.


One of the most powerful verses in all of scripture for me personally for a variety of reasons.

For many years I tried harder to do better, always seeing God as grading me daily on what I did, knowing I wasn't perfect and would always fall short.

My personal testimony is this, God did in my life what no man can do on his own. He changed a hardened heart of stone to one of flesh. Softened my heart to have a love, care, and empathy for others that was non-existent before.

And in so doing, I found my identity in Him and what He created me to be. It was then I realized, behavior modification was not His goal. That is the outgrowth, the result, of a heart that strives to love Him and follow His commandments.

His desire for my life is for me to pursue Him and know Him at a heart level in a personal relationship. That love, respect, and reverence of who He truly is, often translated as fear, is the beginning of a relationship, and yes, wisdom, that only comes from knowing Him at that heart level.

And while life still comes, I still get overwhelmed, the stress, struggle, and realities of life are real, there is a peace, joy, and even understanding, that hinges on the hope and faith in His sovereignty, grace, mercy, and love through my eternal, Lord, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ.

Thanks for posting @Valsport

thats an awesome testimony and also well put. its sad to me that so many people have a negative view of something so great.