"The Best Killer Elk Rifles from a Guide's Perspective"

[LoggerDan]

Im not saying i can just pick upmy 375 and hit the red cap on a coke bottle at fifty yards, and that I don’t shoot it as well as a 30’06 or a 22. But what i am saying is that I am completely comfortable with using it and not concerned with how loud it is or moves against my shoulder. When I need to make a quick shot, either close in or medium distance, open or thick, I can hit what i want and deliver a pay load on a moose or brown bear.

 

[long hunter]

I like the big magnums and shoot them a lot both on the range and hunting, just last week put 50 rds. down range out of the 300-win. mag. at the 100 thru to the 600-yard line spent all day on the yard lines, and done well, will go back next week to do the same thing in preparations for an October hunt in Wyoming, the rifle and load are working well, and I am happy with the accuracy. Will take a 308 along as a backup gun and it too is doing well. Both rifles are dead on a 6in. steel plate at 600 yards, this is the furthest distance I will kill an animal at, if I cannot close the distance it lives to another day.

 

[long hunter]

You could be one of the minority that's for sure. But I'd bet a lot of money that easily 90% or more of people shooting large magnums in the US have flinches and the recoil/noise/cost cause them to shoot a lot less which makes them worse shooters. Bigger is better only as long as your ability to shoot it doesn't drop off, and for most people it does.

This would be a good survey question.

 

[JohnJohnson]

This would be a good survey question.

It'd be interesting but the users of this forum probably aren't a representative sample of the US when it comes to range time. My guess is the average annual range time/round count of a person here is exponentially higher than the overall US hunter's average (which is probably 5-15 rounds for one range session in September or October).

 

[long hunter]

Perhaps, being an old Marine and my best friend of 50 years also, we shoot a lot. We have been shooting every week for the last two years, for this up-coming hunt as the years prior was the same schedule, we go west every other year and during the off years' work for hunts closer to home. 2025 will be a Maryland eastern shore black powder sika hunt, 2026 will be a Maine bear hunt or a Texas hog hunt or maybe both.

 

[Afhunter1]

I know a few guides. Most I wouldn’t pay to take me hunting.

 

[Mountainrancher]

I know a few guides. Most I wouldn’t pay to take me hunting.

All of the guides I know are exceptional hunters and most have forgotten more than I know about elk hunting. That being said their knowledge of ballistics both external and internal is severely lacking.

 

[eoperator]

The final nail in the coffin may be the assertion that bigger cartridges provide, "a greater margin for error".

Comparing 2 different caliber bullets of similar construction at similar velocity the larger caliber bullet will create a wider and deeper wound cavity period. I honestly hope you do not believe otherwise.

 

[Mike D Texas]

All of the guides I know are exceptional hunters and most have forgotten more than I know about elk hunting. That being said their knowledge of ballistics both external and internal is severely lacking.

Maybe so but they get to see a lot more animals shot by a lot more cartridges than most of us ever will.

I would say they defiantly have a leg up on exposure to seeing which cartridges produce faster, more efficient kills for sure.


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[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Comparing 2 different caliber bullets of similar construction at similar velocity the larger caliber bullet will create a wider and deeper wound cavity period. I honestly hope you do not believe otherwise.

Using .308 caliber as control in this example.

.024" wider than a .284
.031" wider than a .277
.044 wider than a .264/6.5
.051" wider than a .257
.065" wider than a .243/6mm
.085" wider than a .223

These differences do not provide a relevant increase in wound cavity. Moreover, it's difficult to even make this comparison. For example, look at the .308 win vs. the .25-06 rem ELDX performance in the attachment. This is right off the Hornady website. The velocity isn't even close at the muzzle, so saying "at similar velocity the bigger caliber wins" while technically true by the margins above, in the real world it's difficult to compare. I guess you could compare a bullet at 500 yard from the .308 and around 650 yards with the .25-06 and do the measurements, but i'm guessing they wouldn't be dramatically different than the caliber differences above.

From the ballistics gelatin testing I've seen, you would see quite the contrary to your assertion. For example, at 300 yards, the slower velcoity of the .308 round would produce less expansion and a smaller wound cavity, but likely more penetration than the .25-06. However, the .25-06 would have a significantly larger wound cavity due to the increased velocity and expansion.

I suggest going out to youtube and checking out the videos the Ultimate Reloader guys did with the ELDM and Berger VLD, hybrid target, and hunter bullets. At high velocity (shorter range) you get explosive expansion and huge wound cavities with reduced penetration. At lower velocity you get reduced expansion, smaller wound cavities, and deeper penetration. Fascinating stuff.

 

[The Guide]

I would say they defiantly have a leg up on exposure to seeing which cartridges produce faster, more efficient kills for sure.

Cartridges do not kill anything. Well placed bullets do. A person with a small cartridge who practices at various distances and learns how to place the shot in the vitals at whatever the distance is while reading the wind correctly will kill faster and more effectively than anyone who only shoots 3 shots to make sure they are still on paper at 100 yards once a year with one of those 10 cartridges.

Bullets do the work. Rifles, scopes, and cartridges are just the delivery system.

Jay

 

[TaperPin]

Soft. American hunters are turning soft. Everyone is so quick to write volumes to defend smaller calibers just to avoid a shoulder push. Guys will beat the crap out of themselves with CrossFit and mma training, and then choose a less capable caliber because the bang is scary.

Guides don’t care what you believe, what YouTube channel is your favorite, or how much you enjoy your AR15 - they are judged on the success of getting an animal on the ground, and you may not like it, but there is a century of experience that larger/faster calibers kill elk better and they see this first hand. When the trigger is pulled a guide trusts what he sees a lot more than what’s written here or some magazine.

If you think all elk just stand sideways waiting to be shot, you’ll be disappointed.

 

[eoperator]

Using .308 caliber as control in this example.

.024" wider than a .284
.031" wider than a .277
.044 wider than a .264/6.5
.051" wider than a .257
.065" wider than a .243/6mm
.085" wider than a .223

These differences do not provide a relevant increase in wound cavity. Moreover, it's difficult to even make this comparison. For example, look at the .308 win vs. the .25-06 rem ELDX performance in the attachment. This is right off the Hornady website. The velocity isn't even close at the muzzle, so saying "at similar velocity the bigger caliber wins" while technically true by the margins above, in the real world it's difficult to compare. I guess you could compare a bullet at 500 yard from the .308 and around 650 yards with the .25-06 and do the measurements, but i'm guessing they wouldn't be dramatically different than the caliber differences above.

From the ballistics gelatin testing I've seen, you would see quite the contrary to your assertion. For example, at 300 yards, the slower velcoity of the .308 round would produce less expansion and a smaller wound cavity, but likely more penetration than the .25-06. However, the .25-06 would have a significantly larger wound cavity due to the increased velocity and expansion.

I suggest going out to youtube and checking out the videos the Ultimate Reloader guys did with the ELDM and Berger VLD, hybrid target, and hunter bullets. At high velocity (shorter range) you get explosive expansion and huge wound cavities with reduced penetration. At lower velocity you get reduced expansion, smaller wound cavities, and deeper penetration. Fascinating stuff.

Comparing a low velocity 308win to a high velocity 2506 is definitely not a similar comparison. You never specify bullet weight or velocity. Your attachment and comparison is irrelevant.
I suggest you should do your own balistic gel tests as i have. You will find an incrementally wider and deeper wound channnel created as bullet size increases.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Cartridges do not kill anything. Well placed bullets do. A person with a small cartridge who practices at various distances and learns how to place the shot in the vitals at whatever the distance is while reading the wind correctly will kill faster and more effectively than anyone who only shoots 3 shots to make sure they are still on paper at 100 yards once a year with one of those 10 cartridges.

Bullets do the work. Rifles, scopes, and cartridges are just the delivery system.

Jay

Well no……kidding. But cartridge is the proper terminology for the ammunition.

There are multiple cartridges that shoot the same caliber and at varying degrees of performance.

Cartridge is the correct term in the context it was meant in my post.

As I go back and read through your post again, I’m not even sure what your point is/was and how it’s even relevant to what I said.

My statement was a guide see more animals killed than most hunters ever will.


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[Leverwalker]

You could be one of the minority that's for sure. But I'd bet a lot of money that easily 90% or more of people shooting large magnums in the US have flinches and the recoil/noise/cost cause them to shoot a lot less which makes them worse shooters. Bigger is better only as long as your ability to shoot it doesn't drop off, and for most people it does.

The only rifles I shoot are my 45-70 and .338 WM. It took awhile but recoil doesn't bother me, nor does noise. I do think you can develop a bad flinch but I think it's the same thing with all shooting - keep drilling in proper technique, including breath. This isn't a "he-man" thing, but I actually like a bit of a heavy wallop when shooting. Much prefer this particular kind of slam, v. the sharper sting of other setups.

 

[Gutshot007]

In general . I think bullets have come a long way in the past several years that have made it possible and improved some of the smaller calibers ability to take elk . Personally i like 7mag or larger .

 

[pacoalcracker]

Look, everyone knows the 300 Winmag is the shit for elk. If you can't handle it, I sure there is plenty of room for you on the porch.

 

[The Guide]

Well no……kidding. But cartridge is the proper terminology for the ammunition.

There are multiple cartridges that shoot the same caliber and at varying degrees of performance.

Cartridge is the correct term in the context it was meant in my post.

As I go back and read through your post again, I’m not even sure what your point is/was and how it’s even relevant to what I said.

My statement was a guide see more animals killed than most hunters ever will.


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My point is that "guides" get mostly clients who have more money than time and don't get out and shoot their rifles hundreds of times a year and spend the time getting intimately knowledge about their setup. To then use that information to say that one cartridge is better at killing elk than another is hogwash. When people don't practice, it doesn't matter what cartridge they use because their chances of placing the bullet where it needs to go is highly diminished by all the added stresses that come with shooting in the field.

I know a lot of "guides" and most of them I wouldn't allow to gut my animals let alone tell me what to shoot it with. I've lived in these elk woods long enough to learn a few things about them. My comments are in no means a personal attack on you or anyone but people get hung up on the fact that someone is called a guide.

Jay

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Comparing a low velocity 308win to a high velocity 2506 is definitely not a similar comparison. You never specify bullet weight or velocity. Your attachment and comparison is irrelevant.
I suggest you should do your own balistic gel tests as i have. You will find an incrementally wider and deeper wound channnel created as bullet size increases.

Actually, if you look at the attachment it shows 110 grain ELDX vs 178 grain ELDX. You asked for similar bullet construction and these are the same. You asked for similar velocity, and between these two calibers, there is no velocity similarity. One is light and fast and one is heavy and moderate. Both will kill, and I own both. These tables are for factory loaded Precision Hunter ammo.

The point is that bullet expansion is dependent on velocity, period. Every single manufacturer publishes minimum velocities for optimum expansion and terminal performance, not minimum energies.

A larger caliber bullet has a minutely larger diameter, and thus all things being equal, will have a tiny bit larger entry wound. However, at 300 yards, the temporary and permanent wound channels created by the .25-06 going 400 fps faster will be bigger than the .308.

The .25-06 is better than the .308 because it has a velocity advantage from the muzzle and beyond practical yardage. It also has less recoil.

Here is the table for a.300 win mag with the same 178 grain ELDX. I'm not sure how many guys are shooting 300s with a 26" barrel, but for the sake of argument, who cares.



Again, the .25-06 has a velocity advantage out to 400 yards where things start to level out. At 500 yards the .25 still leads by a small amount. With a 26" barrel, it would likely maintain a 100fps or more advantage to 500 and beyond. With a fast twist barrel and 133-135 grain bullets the .25 is superior across the spectrum and delivers this performance with a fraction of the recoil.

If you want to shoot larger caliber hard kicking bullets based on your own observations and ballistics testing, by all means use what works for you. However, it is a disservice to tell folks on here that bigger is always better.

 

[The Guide]

Actually, if you look at the attachment it shows 110 grain ELDX vs 178 grain ELDX. You asked for similar bullet construction and these are the same. You asked for similar velocity, and between these two calibers, there is no velocity similarity. One is light and fast and one is heavy and moderate. Both will kill, and I own both. These tables are for factory loaded Precision Hunter ammo.

The point is that bullet expansion is dependent on velocity, period. Every single manufacturer publishes minimum velocities for optimum expansion and terminal performance, not minimum energies.

A larger caliber bullet has a minutely larger diameter, and thus all things being equal, will have a tiny bit larger entry wound. However, at 300 yards, the temporary and permanent wound channels created by the .25-06 going 400 fps faster will be bigger than the .308.

The .25-06 is better than the .308 because it has a velocity advantage from the muzzle and beyond practical yardage. It also has less recoil.

Here is the table for a.300 win mag with the same 178 grain ELDX. I'm not sure how many guys are shooting 300s with a 26" barrel, but for the sake of argument, who cares.

View attachment 599548

Again, the .25-06 has a velocity advantage out to 400 yards where things start to level out. At 500 yards the .25 still leads by a small amount. With a 26" barrel, it would likely maintain a 100fps or more advantage to 500 and beyond. With a fast twist barrel and 133-135 grain bullets the .25 is superior across the spectrum and delivers this performance with a fraction of the recoil.

If you want to shoot larger caliber hard kicking bullets based on your own observations and ballistics testing, by all means use what works for you. However, it is a disservice to tell folks on here that bigger is always better.

I do shoot a 300WM with a 26" Benchmark barrel. In all cases, the .308 caliber bullet retains more energy at all distances vs the .257 caliber bullet. Depending upon your limits, whether you say 1500 foot pounds for elk or 1000 foot pounds for deer/antelope, the .308 bullet carries that energy to a much farther distance. The 25-06 is a good cartridge within its limitations as is the the 308 and the 300 but it all comes down to practice and experience with your setup.

Jay