Texas school shooting

[Texasbuckeye]

My question was in response to your "solutions" which include among other things, creating prison-like situations for our children, placing all the burden on the victims here.

I don't disagree there are better ways to spend money than on our Texas multi-million dollar sports stadiums that we've become famous for.

You brought up rights again, so when does a person's 2A rights begin?

How is installing ballistic glass and having a ballistic closet in the classroom a “prison-like” scenario? I stayed away from having a completely fenced perimeter woth concertina wire and one way in/out with guard posts. Apparently there are places in the world that do that. I dont think we need to evem go that far. We need to make soft targets more hard. Thats all. The reason schools are shot up is they are a captive audience to be killed and there are lots of people there to take advantage of.

Make it tough to kill the kids and guess what, these crazies go somewhere else and kill adults. They still gonna kill, if they can (meaning they dont get caught first), but we CAN protect kids in school pretty easily. It is just gonna cost money.

A person’s 2A rights begin when they are a citizen of the US. If they are born as a citizen they have their right to self protection, performed by their family. Upon adulthood, which we have determined to be 18 in the US, that right transfers to the individual.

When do you think a persons 2A rights begin?

 

[Newtosavage]

How is installing ballistic glass and having a ballistic closet in the classroom a “prison-like” scenario? I stayed away from having a completely fenced perimeter woth concertina wire and one way in/out with guard posts. Apparently there are places in the world that do that. I dont think we need to evem go that far. We need to make soft targets more hard. Thats all. The reason schools are shot up is they are a captive audience to be killed and there are lots of people there to take advantage of.

Make it tough to kill the kids and guess what, these crazies go somewhere else and kill adults. They still gonna kill, if they can (meaning they dont get caught first), but we CAN protect kids in school pretty easily. It is just gonna cost money.

A person’s 2A rights begin when they are a citizen of the US. If they are born as a citizen they have their right to self protection, performed by their family. Upon adulthood, which we have determined to be 18 in the US, that right transfers to the individual.

When do you think a persons 2A rights begin?

I hear your points. They aren't crazy. I just think that focusing on only the target and not the threat is a one-sided approach to solving the problem.

So you answered my question - you believe an individual's 2A rights begin at 18. Why not 12 or 14 or 16?

 

[Texasbuckeye]

At those ages the childs protection is the job of the family.

Turn the question around:

Kid is at home, by themself at age 12, 14, or 16, and they know how to access a locked pistol. Home intruder breaks in and the teen/child gets the weapon and neutralized the threat….would the kid get charged or not have a right to self defense?

 

[Newtosavage]

Prison like situation for children? Pretty similar to masking children and putting plexiglass walls in between them for 2 years for a virus that overall isn’t dangerous for them. Yet most in the country supported it all the while kids were suffering from a plethora of obvious foreseen issues.

I don’t like the idea of a prison wall with barbed wire at schools, no one should support that. But simply having one/two main enterences in and out that lock and having an armed guard, and/or arming trained teachers that wish to do so is literally the only logical solution to stop the bleeding our children are experiencing. I had an armed police officer full time on my high school campus in the early 2000’s. No one was at all weird about it and it was so normal, cool guy to talk to everyday and he even gave me a ride along for my senior project. Didn’t have any kids with guns brought on our campus.

And bottom line is one side needs to give in to an opposing solution and fast. Our govement has a hard enough time enforcing existing laws and the background check system sucks.

Keep in mind my wife is a HS teacher, and all our kids attended public schools the whole way through, so this issue is very real to me.

Again, we're only talking about the victim's situation here. Not the threat.

I made the statement the other day that the reason schools are being targeted is because of the experiences so many young people are having in our schools. They are going back there because it is the source of their pain and disillusionment. There are plenty of "soft targets" in our communities. They are choosing schools, and sometimes churches, for a specific reason.

 

[Newtosavage]

At those ages the childs protection is the job of the family.

Turn the question around:

Kid is at home, by themself at age 12, 14, or 16, and they know how to access a locked pistol. Home intruder breaks in and the teen/child gets the weapon and neutralized the threat….would the kid get charged or not have a right to self defense?

But why 18 and not 21? We make somewhat arbitrary decisions about when a person's "rights" begin all the time. I know plenty of 16 year olds who are damn handy and responsible with firearms and I know plenty of 25 year olds who have no business even being near one. So, just like driver's licenses, why not make them pass a test or two before they can have one? Why is that completely off the table for some people?

 

[BuzzH]

But why 18 and not 21? We make somewhat arbitrary decisions about when a person's "rights" begin all the time. I know plenty of 16 year olds who are damn handy and responsible with firearms and I know plenty of 25 year olds who have no business even being near one. So, just like driver's licenses, why not make them pass a test or two before they can have one? Why is that completely off the table for some people?

I started hunting on my own, including riding my bike down to the Clark Fork to hunt ducks with a 20 gauge, way before I was 18...12 to be exact.

So those saying your second amendment rights begin at 18 are all full of chit.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

But why 18 and not 21? We make somewhat arbitrary decisions about when a person's "rights" begin all the time. I know plenty of 16 year olds who are damn handy and responsible with firearms and I know plenty of 25 year olds who have no business even being near one. So, just like driver's licenses, why not make them pass a test or two before they can have one? Why is that completely off the table for some people?

If we put qualifications on a right then why stop at gun ownership. Why not have qualifications for voting, thats a much more dangerous thing than owning a gun. Elected officials have killed far more “kids” than mass school shootings. Why not have qualifications for illegal search and siezure, we coud catch a whole lotta crime if we just gave up a few rights….

You are suggesting that we can make things safer by giving up some rights. And that is just ass backwards. If you want to give up freedoms to be more safe, there are other countries you can go to where you will find just that. The door is open.

And i totally understand the personal feelings on this stuff, my daughter is going to be a elementary school teacher and we have discussions often on a number of different issues with public education. Does the thought of her living thru a school shooting scare me? You bet. But i think my suggestions on how we can soend money to make scholls more safe are reasonable, reasonably accesible to acheive, and would do significant help to thwart the problem.

But again, we have to remember (not saying you didnt) the problem isnt a gun issue, its a hurting marginalized person issue. Until that is dealt with on a large scale, we will continue to see people wanting to kill other people.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Keep in mind my wife is a HS teacher, and all our kids attended public schools the whole way through, so this issue is very real to me.

Again, we're only talking about the victim's situation here. Not the threat.

I made the statement the other day that the reason schools are being targeted is because of the experiences so many young people are having in our schools. They are going back there because it is the source of their pain and disillusionment. There are plenty of "soft targets" in our communities. They are choosing schools, and sometimes churches, for a specific reason.

Yea I can imagine the level of anxiety you and your wife must be going through. I have a 2 year old so its starting to run through my mind daily. Our thoughts are getting her in a school that is safer with armed security or teachers or doing a joining a hippie compound where every parent pitches in one day a week teaching a smaller group of kids.

What are you wishing to be done to keep your wife and kids safe?

Unrelated, maybe not popular. But I think 18 -21 age should remain legal to purchase pistols, shotguns, bolt actions. Then 25 for the semi auto AR's of the world. Couple with that with better system for background checks and that should help mitigate school shootings.

I agree with you on the "why" schools are targeted but also would add these places are also gun free safe zones that these lunatics know they can get away with a killing spree.

 

[3325]

So when does a person's 2A rights begin?

My answer has more to do with what they entail than when they begin.

Using an originalist constitutional interpretation, I think the founders envisioned John Q. Citizen having a shoulder fired weapon suitable for military operations at home. In those days it was a muzzleloading flintlock. These days it’s a magazine fed semi-automatic at least.

The argument against this is that the founders couldn’t envision what weapons would become. A counter argument is that the founders were far sighted enough to include an amendment process for any unforeseen issues that arise.

But I don’t see two-thirds of congress or the states proposing to modify or eliminate the 2A, much less three-quarters of the states ratifying such a proposal.

 

[Kilboars]

I think we should never show these mass shooters photos or full names.

They want the fame and we shouldn’t give it to them.


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[JJJ]

"lefty?" I think that's wishful thinking on your part.

Write me off as some nutjob liberal when in fact I'm a proud George Bush republican who admires people who can negotiate a compromise that's in the best interest of everyone.

What a lot of folks on either extreme are trying to do is apply an "all or nothing" solution to everything. Throwing up their hands and acting as if there is "nothing we can do." Meanwhile that's costing children their lives.

And don't presume to school me on shepherding a flock. You don't know my background friend.

School you on shepherding a flock? I addressed you early in my post and then wrote what my opinions are. Don’t flatter yourself.

 

[BBob]

I don’t like the idea of a prison wall with barbed wire at schools, no one should support that.

Ah but we do. We've had a high school since the mid to latter 70's locked down and in turn fenced because of racial tensions at the time. It remains today as a very tightly controlled closed campus with very high fences and wire on top. Most other high schools in the district went to closed campuses at the same time but without as high of fencing and wire. There hasn't been a downside as far as I know and pretty much accepted. I attended one of those schools and in latter times had friends that taught at the main school I mentioned. As teachers they liked that it was closed and monitored.

 

[BjornF16]

I made the statement the other day that the reason schools are being targeted is because of the experiences so many young people are having in our schools. They are going back there because it is the source of their pain and disillusionment. There are plenty of "soft targets" in our communities. They are choosing schools, and sometimes churches, for a specific reason.

Really? The elementary school in Uvalde was the source of immense pain to the perp?

 

[BjornF16]

So you answered my question - you believe an individual's 2A rights begin at 18. Why not 12 or 14 or 16?

So those saying your second amendment rights begin at 18 are all full of chit.

U.S. Code might be a good place to start

 

[3325]

I don’t like the idea of a prison wall with barbed wire at schools, no one should support that.

I believe I’d have thought it was cool to go to school in a castle at that age.

It doesn’t seem to effect the learning environment at VMI or The Citadel.

 

[Wrench]

I started hunting on my own, including riding my bike down to the Clark Fork to hunt ducks with a 20 gauge, way before I was 18...12 to be exact.

So those saying your second amendment rights begin at 18 are all full of chit.

Your 2a rights begin at birth. Your parents liability ends at 18.

 

[Newtosavage]

School you on shepherding a flock? I addressed you early in my post and then wrote what my opinions are. Don’t flatter yourself.

well it's what you were trying to do.

 

[Newtosavage]

My answer has more to do with what they entail than when they begin.

Using an originalist constitutional interpretation, I think the founders envisioned John Q. Citizen having a shoulder fired weapon suitable for military operations at home. In those days it was a muzzleloading flintlock. These days it’s a magazine fed semi-automatic at least.

The argument against this is that the founders couldn’t envision what weapons would become. A counter argument is that the founders were far sighted enough to include an amendment process for any unforeseen issues that arise.

But I don’t see two-thirds of congress or the states proposing to modify or eliminate the 2A, much less three-quarters of the states ratifying such a proposal.

I'm trying to get to the point of when an individual should have the right to "bear arms" because it pertains to this particular case. This deranged young man with no criminal record waited until he turned 18 to go buy a weapon to carry out his plan. That's significant. Handguns are 21. Why do we accept these arbitrary numbers as if all kids mature at the same rate, when we know better.

 

[Newtosavage]

I believe I’d have thought it was cool to go to school in a castle at that age.

It doesn’t seem to effect the learning environment at VMI or The Citadel.

because those kids, like my son, chose to be in those places. That's why.

 

[Newtosavage]

I think we should never show these mass shooters photos or full names.

They want the fame and we shouldn’t give it to them.


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I think that's what some of them want but not all. Regardless, it encourages more because they know it's been done before.