so the ammunition manufacturers are not at fault for the higher prices

[Boomer51]

If demand out weighs supply, then businesses should raise their pricing. There is no way around this. Period.

If the pricing is to high at one store, go buy it from another. Participate equally as much in a free market.

This is simply supply and demand. Period.

Supply, demand, and market equilibrium | Microeconomics | Khan Academy

In this unit we explore markets, which is any interaction between buyers and sellers. We start by deriving the demand curve and describe the characteristics of demand. Next, we describe the characteristics of supply. Finally, we explore what happens when demand and supply interact, and what...

www.khanacademy.org

Nope. There's another factor too. Adam Smith would say you're right, but what most dealers are afraid of is that consumers have long memories. BjornF16, just above, said it. If retailers raise prices much, to reap short-term profits, they'll lose long term customers. The businesses not raising prices much are thinking long-term. That thinking is a constraint on pure, short-term supply and demand economics.

The secondary market (Gunbroker) is making up for the skewing of pricing, by pricing supplies, components and firearms at true market price.

 

[BjornF16]

lol...I understand the theory pretty well. It's a theory that requires people to make decisions...like pricing (and buying).

So it is a choice by each seller. Some will choose to set it high (profit motivated) and some will choose to set it at MSRP or slightly lower depending upon what they paid.

Some will consciously choose not to go over MSRP (sometimes by agreements with supplier/manufacturer, sometimes for ethical reasons).

Yes, of course it depends upon how long it has been on shelf. Too long, perhaps it's discounted. Flying off the shelf, well that it where the choice of ethics or profit motive come into play. It's human nature.

 

[CorbLand]

Both above me are correct. Its a free market and businesses get to make choices, same as consumers make choices on purchasing habits. Economics works perfect until you add in human emotion.

My argument is in reference to those that are saying companies are price gouging. Which is simply incorrect. Its supply and demand period. Midway has ammo, Sportsmans doesn't. Therefore, Midway can ask what they want for it. If you don't like the pricing, you can wait for Sportsmans to get it and buy it cheaper.

Price gouging exists nowhere but in your head.

 

[Boomer51]

Both above me are correct. Its a free market and businesses get to make choices, same as consumers make choices on purchasing habits. Economics works perfect until you add in human emotion.

My argument is in reference to those that are saying companies are price gouging. Which is simply incorrect. Its supply and demand period. Midway has ammo, Sportsmans doesn't. Therefore, Midway can ask what they want for it. If you don't like the pricing, you can wait for Sportsmans to get it and buy it cheaper.

Price gouging exists nowhere but in your head.

Agreed! The places that aren't "gouging" don't have it on the shelves.

 

[CorbLand]

Agreed! The places that aren't "gouging" don't have it on the shelves.

I said it in another thread retailers have essentially become distributors at this point. Until supply meets demand or prices are raised to slow demand, scarcity will continue.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Makes me wish I had bought more VSTO stock when I did. Such an obvious outcome we have arrived at.

Yeah I bought a pretty solid VSTO position back in December, and glad I did. Told my buddies (who are now complaining about not being able to find ammo) about it, but they didn't listen

 

[hereinaz]

Let's do a thought exercise.

What if ammo prices stayed low and scarcity continued because of the bottleneck in manufacturing?

People would hoard even MORE ammo because it is cheap, thus prolonging scarcity.

What if prices raise?

People stop stockpiling ammo because they know prices will come down. Scalpers buying only to resell at inflated prices are no longer motivated to buy and resell ammo. Thus, more ammo hits the shelves. And, the guy buying a couple boxes he absolutely needs for a deer hunt is happy to pay three times what it used to be.

 

[hereinaz]

Also, why didn't the people complaining now helping the ammo companies by giving extra money to supplement the profits when demand was low and they were laying off employees, mothballing equipment, not investing in new technology and closing production lines?

And, to the companies selling ammo, do you think they should be obligated to keep prices low just so people who camp out when shelves are stocked use it as an opportunity to come in and clean them out to sell it at crazy prices on Gunbroker? There is money on the table, and in my mind, ammo companies and most retailers have been very sensible about prices and policies.

As someone who prizes liberty above almost everything, I am baffled by the idea that something is wrong with the free market system. Now, if you are just complaining about the way life works, OK. I don't like empty ammo shelves. But, any suggestion it should be different is nuts.

If you don't know by now, excessive regulation to stop the fluctuations in prices is what causes this exact problem universally. The way people buy bullets, primers, powder, etc just because it is on the shelf and they can use it as barter is exactly the way it is in totalitarian regimes. If people saw a line in the Soviet Union, they got in line because commodities in the hand are more valuable than money when there is scarcity.

God bless America, God preserve liberty!

 

[BjornF16]

Also, why didn't the people complaining now helping the ammo companies by giving extra money to supplement the profits when demand was low and they were laying off employees, mothballing equipment, not investing in new technology and closing production lines?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here...

However, I've been a pretty consistent purchaser of ammo, multiple cartridges, as I need it (not a hoarder, with the possible exception of slowly building up 5.56 and 9mm self defense ammo stockpile).
I've mostly bought from MidwayUSA as they used to be pretty competitively priced.

Living in Arizona, I suppose you've never experienced the typical "price gouging" that occurs with natural disasters like hurricanes. I think there may actually be laws against that when a "state of emergency" is declared...but shouldn't we just let the "free market" reign in such circumstances?

Price Gouging Laws by State - FindLaw

FindLaw's extensive state-by-state listing of price gouging laws.

www.findlaw.com

Freedom!

 

[Lawnboi]

Let's do a thought exercise.

What if ammo prices stayed low and scarcity continued because of the bottleneck in manufacturing?

People would hoard even MORE ammo because it is cheap, thus prolonging scarcity.

What if prices raise?

People stop stockpiling ammo because they know prices will come down. Scalpers buying only to resell at inflated prices are no longer motivated to buy and resell ammo. Thus, more ammo hits the shelves. And, the guy buying a couple boxes he absolutely needs for a deer hunt is happy to pay three times what it used to be.

I think your thought process is pretty accurate. Stuff is out there. I’m not upset I have to pay a little more at a retailer, even less so at the local shop I get some stuff at. I do think retailers raising prices and placing limits might curtail the resellers.

At the end of the day guys are just pissing on the feet other shooters/hunters to make a buck. And it ain’t just a few either. That’s the part that I think sucks.

I see this hurting the precision rifle competition market especially. Had I not started last year, it would absolutely not be an option this year for me. Too bad because it was really growing.

Hopefully things slow down. I think they will, but I agree that we will never see pre 2020 prices ever again, and that’s not just for ammo. At this rate my shooting career (if you can call it that, club matches once in a while only) won’t last long. I’m middle class and will be priced out quick.

 

[hereinaz]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here...

However, I've been a pretty consistent purchaser of ammo, multiple cartridges, as I need it (not a hoarder, with the possible exception of slowly building up 5.56 and 9mm self defense ammo stockpile).
I've mostly bought from MidwayUSA as they used to be pretty competitively priced.

Living in Arizona, I suppose you've never experienced the typical "price gouging" that occurs with natural disasters like hurricanes. I think there may actually be laws against that when a "state of emergency" is declared...but shouldn't we just let the "free market" reign in such circumstances?

Price Gouging Laws by State - FindLaw

FindLaw's extensive state-by-state listing of price gouging laws.

www.findlaw.com

Freedom!

While it could be called a disaster, this is not a natural disaster. Price gouging laws should not apply to this situation. Neither supply nor demand are affected by a natural disaster.

And, as a libertarian, I oppose most government action except in the extreme or where it is necessary to preserve what would otherwise be wasted as in the "tragedy of the commons". Price gouging laws in the event of natural disaster and emergencies serve a valuable limited purpose that have more to do with short term disruptions to the market.

Moreover, as soon as the government starts regulating, businesses and other special interests then turn the regulation into a weapon to stifle competition. It is why Google and Facebook fought government regulation when new, but now that they have control and money, they cozy up with lawmakers. Any regulation on pricing of ammunition and guns will ultimately lead to infringements on the natural rights the Second Amendment seeks to preserve.

One more example. What if a disabled woman needed to go buy a gun to preserve her life in the threat of danger. She is willing to pay more than someone who is merely hoarding ammo. The fact that a store raises prices generally to stop hoarding in the face of a run on the product actually benefits the people who have a greater desire and need for the products by pricing opportunists or hoarders out of the market.

Ironically, the longer prices stay low, the longer the scarcity lasts because it facilitates hoarding.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Living in Arizona, I suppose you've never experienced the typical "price gouging" that occurs with natural disasters like hurricanes. I think there may actually be laws against that when a "state of emergency" is declared...but shouldn't we just let the "free market" reign in such circumstances?

Yes. Anti-price gouging laws are just as harmful during emergencies as during normal times. Price spikes during an emergency encourage conservation of existing supplies and draw unused/undervalued inventory into areas of greatest need (e.g., guys buying a trailer full of portable generators and driving them to coastal areas to resell after a hurricane). If you're interested in challenging your views on price gouging, here's some further reading/listening material for you:
https://mises.org/wire/3-good-things-about-price-gouging
www.tomwoods.com/987

 

[hereinaz]

Yes. Anti-price gouging laws are just as harmful during emergencies as during normal times. Price spikes during an emergency encourage conservation of existing supplies and draw unused/undervalued inventory into areas of greatest need (e.g., guys buying a trailer full of portable generators and driving them to coastal areas to resell after a hurricane). If you're interested in challenging your views on price gouging, here's some further reading/listening material for you:
https://mises.org/wire/3-good-things-about-price-gouging
www.tomwoods.com/987

The external effect of government regulation are there, but much harder to see. I don't have as big a problem with price gouging laws in natural disaster if it is short term. As a society, there are other things at work besides the natural market forces, like charity. But, I would have no problem if the gov't did nothing at all.

When it comes to price gouging, the best thing to be done is not give them patronage during good times.

 

[BjornF16]

While it could be called a disaster, this is not a natural disaster. Price gouging laws should not apply to this situation. Neither supply nor demand are affected by a natural disaster.

And, as a libertarian, I oppose most government action except in the extreme or where it is necessary to preserve what would otherwise be wasted as in the "tragedy of the commons". Price gouging laws in the event of natural disaster and emergencies serve a valuable limited purpose that have more to do with short term disruptions to the market.

Moreover, as soon as the government starts regulating, businesses and other special interests then turn the regulation into a weapon to stifle competition. It is why Google and Facebook fought government regulation when new, but now that they have control and money, they cozy up with lawmakers. Any regulation on pricing of ammunition and guns will ultimately lead to infringements on the natural rights the Second Amendment seeks to preserve.

One more example. What if a disabled woman needed to go buy a gun to preserve her life in the threat of danger. She is willing to pay more than someone who is merely hoarding ammo. The fact that a store raises prices generally to stop hoarding in the face of a run on the product actually benefits the people who have a greater desire and need for the products by pricing opportunists or hoarders out of the market.

Ironically, the longer prices stay low, the longer the scarcity lasts because it facilitates hoarding.

Yup...you've never been in a natural disaster.

Local supply and demand is most definitely impacted...short term. But supply and demand is supply and demand...whether it is a short term "fluctuation" or long term ebb and flow.

Don't misunderstand me...I'm calling for any government action, nor am I suggesting the overly inflated pricing of ammunition and reloading components is a "state of emergency".

If you read my original post, it said I was "disappointed" with MidwayUSA...and that I have consequently communicated that disappointment with them. Depending upon their response, I may never buy from them again (much like I have never stepped foot in a Dick's Sporting Goods since 2013

 

[5MilesBack]

My LGS owner is a friend...with all the craziness these past few years, he has never once raised prices beyond MSRP. It's a choice...

Of course it's a choice, but that doesn't negate what supply and demand is telling us. If the "market" price is $100 and your friend "chooses" to sell his for $60.........that says nothing about the supply and demand, or market pricing. That just means that he is selling below market pricing.

The other thing you have to consider though is many states have been forcing an increase in minimum wage, instead of allowing the free market to dictate wages. So some retailer's labor costs may have just gone up quite a bit after the 1st of the year, so they have to adjust their prices on goods as such. Here.......I've noticed a lot of restaurants that have raised their prices by about $2 a meal since our minimum wage has gone up to over $12/hr now.

 

[*zap*]

Lots of folks 'not gonna buy here, there or wherever' until they really need something that is not available anywhere else and then they will buy it from their boycott list with no problem.

cry me a river

 

[hereinaz]

Yup...you've never been in a natural disaster.

Local supply and demand is most definitely impacted...short term. But supply and demand is supply and demand...whether it is a short term "fluctuation" or long term ebb and flow.

Don't misunderstand me...I'm calling for any government action, nor am I suggesting the overly inflated pricing of ammunition and reloading components is a "state of emergency".

If you read my original post, it said I was "disappointed" with MidwayUSA...and that I have consequently communicated that disappointment with them. Depending upon their response, I may never buy from them again (much like I have never stepped foot in a Dick's Sporting Goods since 2013

I don't like to "pay too much" either. I support everyone who wants to boycott a company for what they consider bad behavior. I haven't been to Dick's either. On the flip side, I support local businesses that are good to me. I hope people support me for the same reason.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

The external effect of government regulation are there, but much harder to see. I don't have as big a problem with price gouging laws in natural disaster if it is short term. As a society, there are other things at work besides the natural market forces, like charity. But, I would have no problem if the gov't did nothing at all.

I have no problem with charity. I've personally donated time and money to disaster relief and was happy to do so. But if I'm in a disaster situation, I want every possible channel open for getting the stuff I need. I don't want opportunistic resellers kept out of the market by misguided price gouging laws. If charitable outlets can get bottled water, food, gasoline, etc. to me, that's great and I'd be much obliged. If charity can't meet demand and I have to pay somebody 10x normal prices for those items, so be it.

 

[BjornF16]

Lots of folks 'not gonna buy here, there or wherever' until they really need something that is not available anywhere else and then they will buy it from their boycott list with no problem.

cry me a river

You don't really know me...

 

[MattB]

How much of ammunition components are made outside the US? The US dollar is weak in large part due to COVID related money supply expansion outpacing most other countrues, which makes foreign-sourced goods more expensive. It is easy to overlook obvious but uncontroversial reasons.