RokStok

[Formidilosus]

Have you posted or is there a good resource for figuring out best LOP for someone?

I'm aware of the 90 degree bent arm, etc. but it seems like that method should probably be categorized similarly to the thought that all scopes work fine.

With my KRG bravo I found that to get square to the rifle prone I had to take out all of the spacers which seemed odd as I'm ~6'-1" with pretty long arms. Wondering if I'm doing something wrong or if that's normal-ish?

@wind gypsy has it right below. Move the scope back and shoot a longer LOP. The totally squared up, recoil pad on your collar bone, short LOP, etc deal is a PRS 6BR, 25lb rifle, free recoil, everything is prone, barricade or tripod shooting- thing. One shot with a hunting weight unbraked 300 win Mag will show why that is not a universal method. Beyond that, it seems that having a short LOP, which moves you firing hand back closer to your shoulder causing a severe wrist/hand angle results in all sorts of issues- reduced trigger controls reduced recoil control, less comfort, etc.

Definitely requires one to mount a scope a lot further back when you're square and mounting the rifle closer to center than being bladed and putting it in your shoulder pocket.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Definitely requires one to mount a scope a lot further back when you're square and mounting the rifle closer to center than being bladed and putting it in your shoulder pocket.

This!

 

[TX_Diver]

@wind gypsy has it right below. Move the scope back and shoot a longer LOP. The totally squared up, recoil pad on your collar bone, short LOP, etc deal is a PRS 6BR, 25lb rifle, free recoil, everything is prone, barricade or tripod shooting- thing. One shot with a hunting weight unbraked 300 win Mag will show why that is not a universal method. Beyond that, it seems that having a short LOP, which moves you firing hand back closer to your shoulder causing a severe wrist/hand angle results in all sorts of issues- reduced trigger controls reduced recoil control, less comfort, etc.

I definitely mounted that scope before adjusting the LOP a few months later. That makes sense why I had to shorten it. Thanks @wind gypsy

For someone who has until now just taken a rifle off the shelf and shot it, do you guys have any tips on how best to determine LOP? I have a bunch of spacers for the bravo that I can put back in there when I remount the scope.

 

[Antares]

The vast majority of users do not want spacers to have to be used to reach normal LOP.

I certainly agree.

A “compact” option and a “standard” option, plus a spacer kit, would let everyone get what they want.

Mines going to be 14.5” no matter what. I’m just being lazy and trying to avoid an hour of shaping my own “grind to fit” spacers.

 

[lintond]

@wind gypsy has it right below. Move the scope back and shoot a longer LOP. The totally squared up, recoil pad on your collar bone, short LOP, etc deal is a PRS 6BR, 25lb rifle, free recoil, everything is prone, barricade or tripod shooting- thing. One shot with a hunting weight unbraked 300 win Mag will show why that is not a universal method. Beyond that, it seems that having a short LOP, which moves you firing hand back closer to your shoulder causing a severe wrist/hand angle results in all sorts of issues- reduced trigger controls reduced recoil control, less comfort, etc.

[mention]Formidilosus [/mention]do you have a post anywhere explaining in more detail proper shooting form? I’ve seen quite a few that say to be in line with the rifle for better recoil management. Is “bladed” something more at an angle with the recoil pad out closer to your shoulder joint instead of in on your collar bone? Thx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wind gypsy]

This is a recent Video in relation to some of the squaring up vs bladed and chest vs shoulder pocket mounting for illustration purposes.

I'd love to hear what Form has to say about this stuff as he seems to like a longer LOP than what I've seen in the video above and others like the MDS guys and Chris way. It definitely impacts how a guy sets up LOP and mounts a scope.

 

[Formidilosus]

I definitely mounted that scope before adjusting the LOP a few months later. That makes sense why I had to shorten it. Thanks @wind gypsy

For someone who has until now just taken a rifle off the shelf and shot it, do you guys have any tips on how best to determine LOP? I have a bunch of spacers for the bravo that I can put back in there when I remount the scope.

Use all of them. grin. This short LOP thing is really only a PRS thing. In other shooting sports where speed, recoil control, multiple broken positions, and fast hits rule, you use the longest LOP possible.

I prefer a very long LOP by conventional beliefs- over 14” from trigger face.

The best way to measure it is from the front face of where your middle finger lands on the grip, not from trigger. The most shootable CF rifle that I have ever used, that everyone from barely 5ft tall to well over 6 foot remarks how easy it is to shoot, has a lop from buttpad to grip index of almost 12.75”, and to trigger of 14.25”.




The KRG Bravo has a LOP from recoil pad to grip index of 12” and to trigger of 13.75”

The only reason it isn’t longer is due to running out of spacers.


Factory T3 stock is 11.75” from recoil pad to grip index, and nearly 14” to trigger.

 

[TX_Diver]

So basically put all my spacers in then mount my scope to work with that?

 

[Formidilosus]

So basically put all my spacers in then mount my scope to work with that?

I general, yes.

 

[Formidilosus]

This is a recent Video in relation to some of the squaring up vs bladed and chest vs shoulder pocket mounting for illustration purposes.

I'd love to hear what Form has to say about this stuff as he seems to like a longer LOP than what I've seen in the video above and others like the MDS guys and Chris way. It definitely impacts how a guy sets up LOP and mounts a scope.

Well, the first 10 seconds of the video says exactly what I stated- this is for PRS/bipod/tripod use.

This recoil pad location on your body with a rifle that has recoil can legitimately break a collar bone, and at a very minimum causes soft tissue damage and bruising quickly. It is a 25lb 6BR, PRS, tripod/bipod thing.




Besides that, like most people do- he is saying things that are opposite of what he is demonstrating.


In this clip he is explaining how his shoulders are perfectly square to the rifle with no angle-



Except that his shoulders aren’t remotely perfectly square, there is a very real angle between his body and the rifle line.

Again, in this one he is explaining how his shoulders are equal distance from the rifle- square, neither shoulder is in from of the other.



Again his own position shows that to be totally false- his left shoulder, as in the pic from above, is significantly in front of his right- as it has to be because his right hand is 6” in front of his face, and his left is in front of the action.

Even in this one of a “good example of having the rifle square” with “hips square, shoulders are square”- it isn’t, there is a visible angle to his shoulders and the rifle-



Is it relatively more “square” than a conventional position- yes. But it isn’t “perfectly square” as he, and about everyone else states nonstop. They aren’t even doing what they say they are. It isn’t really a shoulder thing, most are really speaking about getting your body generally inline with the recoil path- relatively neutral and straight spine.

At the end of the video he states “for modern marksmanship, using a bipod, competition shooting from position, anything along that line”. It’s a PRS barricade/tripod benchrest thing. The “short lop, scope mounted high” thing is a PRS contrived deal.

I’m not hating on PRS- that’s what it is. It was born out of that, and falls flat on its face, or at a bare minimum shows some severe compromise when taken out of that context/situation.

Relatively straight and neutral behind the gun is optimum from any position- length of pull has little or nothing to do with that.

 

[Brontosaurus]

Well, the first 10 seconds of the video says exactly what I stated- this is for PRS/bipod/tripod use.

This recoil pad location on your body with a rifle that has recoil can legitimately break a collar bone, and at a very minimum causes soft tissue damage and bruising quickly. It is a 25lb 6BR, PRS, tripod/bipod thing.
View attachment 625361



Besides that, like most people do- he is saying things that are opposite of what he is demonstrating.


In this clip he is explaining how his shoulders are perfectly square to the rifle with no angle-
View attachment 625362


Except that his shoulders aren’t remotely perfectly square, there is a very real angle between his body and the rifle line.

Again, in this one he is explaining how his shoulders are equal distance from the rifle- square, neither shoulder is in from of the other.

View attachment 625363

Again his own position shows that to be totally false- his left shoulder, as in the pic from above, is significantly in front of his right- as it has to be because his right hand is 6” in front of his face, and his left is in front of the action.

Even in this one of a “good example of having the rifle square” with “hips square, shoulders are square”- it isn’t, there is a visible angle to his shoulders and the rifle-
View attachment 625364


Is it relatively more “square” than a conventional position- yes. But it isn’t “perfectly square” as he, and about everyone else states nonstop. They aren’t even doing what they say they are. It isn’t really a shoulder thing, most are really speaking about getting your body generally inline with the recoil path- relatively neutral and straight spine.

At the end of the video he states “for modern marksmanship, using a bipod, competition shooting from position, anything along that line”. It’s a PRS barricade/tripod benchrest thing. The “short lop, scope mounted high” thing is a PRS contrived deal.

I’m not hating on PRS- that’s what it is. It was born out of that, and falls flat on its face, or at a bare minimum shows some severe compromise when taken out of that context/situation.

Relatively straight and neutral behind the gun is optimum from any position- length of pull has little or nothing to do with that.

Not questioning what your saying. But what is the optimal buttpad position on your shoulder? Midway between collarbone and shoulder divot? In shoulder divot and just square up to the rifle?

 

[Formidilosus]

Not questioning what your saying. But what is the optimal buttpad position on your shoulder? Midway between collarbone and shoulder divot? In shoulder divot and just square up to the rifle?

As an all around thin for all/must shoulder fired guns- in the “divot” or pocket. Roll the shoulder forward to create a 90° surface for the buttpad to rest against, and try to maintain a “straight and neutral” position behind the rifle. Off hand no rest is a bit different, and also depends on whether you value best stability with near zero recoil control, or a little larger wobble zone, but with much greater recoil control.

 

[Nhenry]

I asked a while ago, but is it going to be a full ARCA or is it just going to be a SRS ARCA/pic one in the scalloped forend or what? Not reading 20 pages to find the answer.

 

[Dobermann]

I agree, but the OCD in me likes tight gaps.

Has @Ryan Avery not introduced you to the Rokslide 'must be able to fit a dead cat between barrel and stock' spec?

 

[Dobermann]

How about if it looks nice AND doesnt compromise function?

Yep. That's called a big gap. Because what works looks good. What we've been trying to tell you for pages.

 

[bmart2622]

Yep. That's called a big gap. Because what works looks good. What we've been trying to tell you for pages.

I disagree, a big gap looks like shit!!! And Ive said from the beginning, "proper clearance " which can be achieved without a huge gap. I find it interesting that people are busting my balls because I want the stock to look good and function properly but alot of people want Sendero contour to run carbon barrels which most if not all the benefit of them are for looks

 

[Formidilosus]

I disagree, a big gap looks like shit!!! And Ive said from the beginning, "proper clearance " which can be achieved without a huge gap. I find it interesting that people are busting my balls because I want the stock to look good and function properly but alot of people want Sendero contour to run carbon barrels which most if not all the benefit of them are for looks

No one is busting your balls. You stated a gap with a barrel and stock was what you wanted, then I and others pointed out that you can want that, but that little of a gap will cause intermittent contact. Not a guess or a supposition- it 100% will cause contact from alternate positions if any torque is applied at all to the forend.

 

[bmart2622]

I want to put a 3b barrel in a stock inletted for a 3b, thats what Ive said from the beginning and a 3b inlet is going to be an option, so unless you are telling me as the designer of the stock, that a 3b will not fit in a 3b inlet properly then that should probably be addressed, otherwise Im not sure why this is even being discussed any longer.

 

[Lawnboi]

5’6 I need me 13”, could settle with a 1/2” recoil pad instead of 1”.


I’m fine with paying for more custom options through UM if it means I can get a stock that I don’t feel the need to blade to the rifle when shooting positionally.

As far as contours I agree with form, If im buying a stock I want shifter contour than what I have if only to have the margin of error. Screwing this thing on at home tolerances will stack; not like gunsmith cutting the stock to fit. Last few barrel channels I ordered specific I asked for more float, to make the gas something that can’t be taken up by a pine needle.

 

[Formidilosus]

I want to put a 3b barrel in a stock inletted for a 3b, thats what Ive said from the beginning and a 3b inlet is going to be an option, so unless you are telling me as the designer of the stock, that a 3b will not fit in a 3b inlet properly then that should probably be addressed, otherwise Im not sure why this is even being discussed any longer.

If it were solely up to me, this wouldn’t be a discussion. You need to go at least one common barrel inlet larger to ensure true freefloat.


This is a equivalent to a 3b inlet with a 3b barrel-



Zero contact and a piece of paper goes all the way to the receiver. That is the same clearance as the one you stated was “perfect”. Just the weight of the rifle stopped a piece of paper from moving freely. As I stated, that gap is “perfect” for causing intermittent contact.

This, is what is required to achieve full freefloat without possibility of intermittent contact-





That gap is equivalent to a T3 lite barrel in a CTR/D18/3b inlet. A 3b should be in something closer to a sendero.



This is a T3 Lite in a “sporter” barrel inlet that was opened just enough for a business card to slide through-





It has intermittent contact. It’s a very stiff forend and yet with a gap that is larger than one you, and others believe is perfect- contact occurs while shooting. For very stiff stocks, .100 inch clearance is about minimum.