Questions for Form and other "small caliber for big game" folks

[LONE HUNTER]

If you’re successful killer and have not experienced scope and other anomalies let it go and rock on. If you’re searching due to anomalies or just desire a different level of excellence then buy a few items and test. Maybe meet up with a formie and shoot with them.

^^^ This 100%. There's a billion ways to skin a cat. No need to shit on someone else if what they say they are doing works for them on either side of the argument.

Where I take issue, is someone who hasn't even tried something and then proceeds to shit on it and say it's wrong and doesn't work. That's just plain disingenuous and stupid.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Let's examine the Five Demandments

1. Thou shalt never clean thy firearm, lest it lose its sacred patina.
2. Thou shalt smite the moose only with the .223 caliber, for it is decreed sufficient.
3. Thou shalt hold match bullets as the greatest hunting projectiles, even though their makers proclaim otherwise.
4. Thou shalt proclaim the Tikka as the one true consistent and reliable cheap production firearm.
5. Thou shall shun Leupold and Vortex, for they are deemed untrustworthy in the eyes of the Formidiliocous.

THIS is where all the push back falls on its face. You imply demands or forcing things and others react the same way when all that has been presented is data and factual reality, not rhetoric, that you can institute or not as a choice. But ignoring the data and acting like you HAVE to do those things and just pushing back is foolish.

1) The data shows that generally speaking routinely/proactively cleaning a rifle bore doesn't see to affect functional accuracy hence if you choose to the data supports it likely being okay to test out on your personal rifle too. If you do have an accuracy degradation at some point feel free to clean and see if you breath life back into the barrel.

2) SPECIFIC bullets in 223 can deliver more than adequate wound channels to ethically and quickly kill animals and it has been proven thus you MAY test this out for yourself building on what has been demonstrated by others as being affective and decide if you personally like it. One size doesn't fit all. The benefit of the smaller caliber being folks statistically shoot them better both on first round impacts and follow up shots.

3) It has been demonstrated what certain fragmenting bullets do (not all) and how those are effective terminally and also have the added benefit of higher BC to buck wind better and improve the chances the shooter hits where aiming. It has been discussed when that might be desirable and when other bullets might be desirable.

4) When stuff works it works... the are some cons to the tikka and many pros.

5) It has been demonstrated many/most models of Leopold, Vortex, and many others fail to hold zero. HOWEVER there is a model of Leupold that absolutely holds zero and has been repeatedly mentioned a by Form and demonstrated on the drop test. Just like there is a specific model of Maven that works but doesn't imply the rest do. The data isn't hidden away and only interpreted by the eyes of one, its right in front of our faces with encouragement to verify for oneself.

 

[ElPollo]

^^^ This 100%. There's a billion ways to skin a cat. No need to shit on someone else if what they say they are doing works for them on either side of the argument.

Where I take issue, is someone who hasn't even tried something and then proceeds to shit on it and say it's wrong and doesn't work. That's just plain disingenuous and stupid.

I honestly don’t see a lot of people telling experienced hunters they are doing things wrong on this forum. Most of what I see is inexperienced people coming to Rokslide with an expectation that they need more gun than they actually do and hearing forum members suggest options that are easier to shoot and still effective. If someone has been shooting a 375 H&H on little south Texas deer the size of big dogs since the dinosaurs walked the earth, I think that’s super cool and I’m sure it will work. I just don’t think it’s the best advice for a newbie.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Well. Neither of the Tikkas that I took out today blew up due to a lack of cleaning so that’s good. Fun field day this morning starting before sunrise.

Windy again today but still managed to shoot some groups and chrono to make sure all the dreaded carbon build up wasn’t affecting my velocities. Winds were worse early on when shooting the 243. Coming in with swirls and big gusts past 30MPH on the kestrel from 7-9 o clock.



Tikka .243 shooting factory Hornady 95 SSTs. Factory Tikka 20” 8 twist barrel with just under 2,000 rounds. Never had a single patch down the barrel. 15 shots at 100 yards.






Things started to calm down to about half the wind values by the time I got to the Tikka 22 Creedmoor.

Over 1,100 rounds on this one. Never cleaned the barrel. Hand loaded 88 ELDMs. 15 shots at 100 yards.







Both guns were then verified to 850 yards with dozens of hits each on 10” gongs in varying winds and varying shooting positions.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

I honestly don’t see a lot of people telling experienced hunters they are doing things wrong on this forum. Most of what I see is inexperienced people coming to Rokslide with an expectation that they need more gun than they actually do and hearing forum members suggest options that are easier to shoot and still effective. If someone has been shooting a 375 H&H on little south Texas deer the size of big dogs since the dinosaurs walked the earth, I think that’s super cool and I’m sure it will work. I just don’t think it’s the best advice for a newbie.

What i mean is, the guys who come on here and bitch about

Tikkas
Scope drop eval
Smaller cartridges
Match bullets


Unless they've tried it... then saying its wrong is ridiculous. If someone tries it and decides its not for them then that's great.... atleast try shit if you're gonna say it aint right....

 

[Dobermann]

I am here to tell you that that experience is just as shocking, and not nearly as much fun, as walking into a sauna packed with the (naked) Norwegian women's ski team.

Can you tell us that story?

It would be far more interesting than reading Archer86's nonsense ...

 

[DagOtto]

Can you tell us that story?

It would be far more interesting than reading Archer86's nonsense ...

One of the funniest days I can remember. My buddy and I were in our late 20s or early 30s and both recently divorced and decided to go to the French Alps on an alpine skiing/ sightseeing trip.

Third or fourth day there we noticed that the little restauraunt in our hotel was filled with beautiful, very fit looking young women all wearing sweats and warm-ups with logos and the norwegian flag. My friend was pretty fearless and chatted a few of them up and discovered that they were the women’s cross country skiing national team from Norway in France for a race.

We spent most of our ski day that day devising various stupid plans for how we were going to meet and then hook-up with the cutest women on the team.

After skiing we went to the bar for a drink hoping to bump into some of the team, but of course they were not drinking before a race.

Then we decided we would go to the pool and spa area hoping they would be there.

When we arrived at the spa area we could hear female voices from the large sauna and so we headed that way. Ive since learned that in most of Europe saunas are clothing optional. But we didnt know that, and so we marched into the sauna with our baggie “board shorts” on.

It was steamy and pretty dark and also pretty crowded in that sauna, so it wasnt til we had found an open section of bench and taken our seats that I realized that not only had we found six or seven of the Norwegian race team, but that they were all topless and that some were completely naked!!

Id like to say that we played it super cool like James Bond and that I met the girl of my dreams. But instead we stared at the floor in embarrassment and barely said two words and the ladies carried on as if we didnt exist.

To this day I laugh every time I go near a sauna.

 

[CSY]

Hey ztc,

Yes, like you those Exo podcasts started me down this road. I've listened to them 2-3 times each and even took notes! I've since basically "hoovered" up every bit of Form content possible and that is how I landed here on Rokslide.

I've also put these theories into practice altering a rifle build from .308 win to 6.5CM, switching bullets from typical mono metals to DRT, leaving behind my beloved Leuopold brand for the first time in 30 years and going to Trijicon and NF, and transitioning from a ton of bench shooting to a ton of practical hunting drills.

I think that I have probably advanced my skills in terms of affectively and humanely kiling game more in the last 6-8 months than in the previous 30 years. And that is from someone who has been "trying" to be better than the average hunter for many years. This effort really accelerated for me about 5 seasons ago after a total rodeo on a large muley.

So while I still have a million questions and am skeptical by nature, I do feel incredibly appreciatve for Form and others on Rokslide and for Mark at Exo for sharing this info.

Curious what your reasoning was to go away from Leupold. I’ve heard good things about Trijicon and NF, but so have I with Leupold.

 

[CSY]

Curious what your reasoning was to go away from Leupold. I’ve heard good things about Trijicon and NF, but so have I with Leupold.

Disregard. I kept reading and saw the scope review links (page 6) several people posted. Thanks.

 

[Packmansion]

You have to accept carbon barrels will pit without cleaning - that fact of life hasn’t changed since Lewis and Clark were still in diapers.

I personally don’t care if people clean or not - it makes no sense since cleaning only takes a few minutes, but grown adults can do what they want. It’s talked about like nothing bad will happen, but barrels rust, metal below stock lines rust, bolts rust, triggers rust. It all works fine until it doesn’t. Avoiding basic maintenance because it takes too long is right up there with making a bed, wearing clean underwear, and washing the car.

1. I don't make my bed
2. I wear the same pair of underwear 5+ times before I wash them
3. I let the rain wash my car for free

All these chores and obligations were created by a kabal whose sole purpose is to get you to buy more underwear and car care products. They force you to make your bed even though there is no profit in it because they're just evil.

 

[Schmo]

1. I don't make my bed
2. I wear the same pair of underwear 5+ times before I wash them
3. I let the rain wash my car for free

All these chores and obligations were created by a kabal whose sole purpose is to get you to buy more underwear and car care products. They force you to make your bed even though there is no profit in it because they're just evil.

Please never invite me over!

 

[Dobermann]

One of the funniest days I can remember. My buddy and I were in our late 20s or early 30s and both recently divorced and decided to go to the French Alps on an alpine skiing/ sightseeing trip.

Third or fourth day there we noticed that the little restauraunt in our hotel was filled with beautiful, very fit looking young women all wearing sweats and warm-ups with logos and the norwegian flag. My friend was pretty fearless and chatted a few of them up and discovered that they were the women’s cross country skiing national team from Norway in France for a race.

We spent most of our ski day that day devising various stupid plans for how we were going to meet and then hook-up with the cutest women on the team.

After skiing we went to the bar for a drink hoping to bump into some of the team, but of course they were not drinking before a race.

Then we decided we would go to the pool and spa area hoping they would be there.

When we arrived at the spa area we could hear female voices from the large sauna and so we headed that way. Ive since learned that in most of Europe saunas are clothing optional. But we didnt know that, and so we marched into the sauna with our baggie “board shorts” on.

It was steamy and pretty dark and also pretty crowded in that sauna, so it wasnt til we had found an open section of bench and taken our seats that I realized that not only had we found six or seven of the Norwegian race team, but that they were all topless and that some were completely naked!!

Id like to say that we played it super cool like James Bond and that I met the girl of my dreams. But instead we stared at the floor in embarrassment and barely said two words and the ladies carried on as if we didnt exist.

To this day I laugh every time I go near a sauna.

That's fantastic.

Thanks for saving the thread.

 

[Packmansion]

Please never invite me over!

Live laugh love!

 

[TaperPin]

I’m actually worried that the little gun crowd is flinching a lot while bird hunting with anything above 410. 7/8 oz 20 gauge loads recoil as much as a 270, and 1 oz matches a 7 mag. I keep telling my bird hunting friends they must be flinching every time they mis.