“Small-caliber philosophy” for shotguns?

[Macintosh]

My go to 12 gauge load for everything except pheasants and waterfowl is 7/8 oz of 7.5 going 1250-1300. AA or STS hull, silver Claybuster wad and Clays powder. Easy on the shoulder, enough gas to reliably cycle my Beretta and enough speed to break long clay and high kill gun shy late season doves.

I wore out a mec 9000 loading that exact load. Super easy on the shoulder. Just not a lot of space for bigger shot is the only down-side.

 

[False_Cast]

I also posted the data and calculations in this thread.

I also clearly stated that comparing apples to apples, TSS to TSS, a 12ga outperforms a 410 due to velocity and pattern density/size at range in a way that is meaningful in a shotgun. Likewise, shooting #2 steel, a 12ga outperforms a 410 due to velocity and pattern density/size at range in a way that is meaningful in a shotgun.

Please, go on and show me how many pellets in a 20" circle at 50yds with your 410 load of TSS, and with a 12ga load? Is it still going fast enough to penetrate effectively?

You don’t understand the small caliber philosophy. Nobody is saying a 12 gauge with tss isn’t going to be devastating on any American game bird. The small for caliber philosophy is about using a smaller caliber gun with less recoil with the implementation of modern projectiles, and I think everyone agrees that’s tss in shotguns. Pattern density is adequate because you maintain lethality (penetration) at distance with much smaller shot. Duck hunters like myself are crushing mallards with 1/2 oz of TSS 10’s. This allows a shooter to maintain equal lethality with their larger bore counterparts firing traditional projectiles (steel 3’s in a 12 gauge). The whole point is not to compare “apples to apples” as you call it. It’s to maintain lethality while decreasing recoil; I.e. tss in a 410 being as lethal if not more than larger steel shot at a given range.

 

[Macintosh]

You don’t understand the small caliber philosophy. Nobody is saying a 12 gauge with tss isn’t going to be devastating on any American game bird. The small for caliber philosophy is about using a smaller caliber gun with less recoil with the implementation of modern projectiles, and I think everyone agrees that’s tss in shotguns. Pattern density is adequate because you maintain lethality (penetration) at distance with much smaller shot. Duck hunters like myself are crushing mallards with 1/2 oz of TSS 10’s. This allows a shooter to maintain equal lethality with their larger bore counterparts firing traditional projectiles (steel 3’s in a 12 gauge). The whole point is not to compare “apples to apples” as you call it. It’s to maintain lethality while decreasing recoil; I.e. tss in a 410 being as lethal if not more than larger steel shot at a given range.

Yes. My only issue is NEEDING it, because Im not willing to pay for it and its not even available to me locally except by mail order. Thats not even an option for folks in a few states.

I’m curious what kind of penetration you get on ducks or geese from 10 tss at 40+ yards?

Asking because thats like 5ish sizes lower than what folks used back when lead was legal. Ive never tried tss that small, in part bc for Turkey hunting here we’re mandated to use size 8 or larger shot, but Id think even tss runs out of penetration at some distance? Either that or you end up picking all that tss out of every bird? Curious where you have found the limit of such tiny shot to be, and if you’re the type who utilizes that limit or not.

 

[Bluefish]

Yes. My only issue is NEEDING it, because Im not willing to pay for it and its not even available to me locally except by mail order. Thats not even an option for folks in a few states.

I’m curious what kind of penetration you get on ducks or geese from 10 tss at 40+ yards?

Asking because thats like 5ish sizes lower than what folks used back when lead was legal. Ive never tried tss that small, in part bc for Turkey hunting here we’re mandated to use size 8 or larger shot, but Id think even tss runs out of penetration at some distance? Either that or you end up picking all that tss out of every bird? Curious where you have found the limit of such tiny shot to be, and if you’re the type who utilizes that limit or not.

I have used 9’s and 9.5 tss on pheasant and didn’t like it. Penetration was fine, if I found any shot in the bird it was on the off side skin. Where it “failed” imho was that it didn’t break bones. Just put small pinholes in them. Birds were dead, but didn’t crumple in the air. Went back to 7.5’s or 8’s. TSS has better penetration than lead. I shot a mild steel plate once. Really damaged the plate.

 

[Fowl Play]

Allot of info here.... but no one should be recommending a new hunter to get a .410 for wingshooting. You will be set up for failure. Turkeys with tungsten where you are aiming... yes, but not wingshooting.

The "small caliber philosophy" only applies to weapons that you "aim". You do not aim a shotgun in a wingshooting scenario. It is an instinctual swing shot that takes practice to master. A 12 gauge gives you the largest shot string ie. the most forgiveness in your shot. It also will put the most pellets on target for a cleaner kill. If you could make every shot perfectly, yes, you could use a .410 for everything. But you can't.... and it will take years of dedicated practice to get that good. Very few experienced hunters use .410 for wingshooting. They may go to say a 28 gauge for some game, but even then the person that does that will have dozens of years of experience under their belt.

For lead shooting only, you could get a 20 gauge, as you can use denser smaller shot. But you've already mentioned waterfowl which requires less dense steel shot (you will not be shooting any other non tox shot at waterfowl unless you are ok spending north of $200 in ammo in a morning hunt alone).

The quintessential, do-it-all shotgun for an average sized man should be a 12 gauge. Once you practice enough to start getting clean kills on almost every shot you make (which will take years), then you can consider dropping gauge. Or.... you can just use lighter loads in the 12 gauge....

 

[Steve300xcw]

Was pointed out to me years ago that the center of the pattern of a 410 is in the same place as it is with a 12ga....

 

[Fowl Play]

@yeky83 one thing you don’t have is experience. But this can be easy and fun to get with a shotgun. Do you have a skeet/trap/sporting clays range near you? Most rent shotguns. Rent a shotgun or go with a friend and use theirs. Now walk over to the trap range and start trying to hit clays with a 12 gauge. (It’s going to be way easier with someone there to teach you proper form or pay for lessons). I bet you’ll want to start with a 12 gauge just based on that experience… now Once you start breaking most clays in trap, move to skeet. Then start taking reports, true pairs etc. Once you hit most of those, now move to sporting clays. Once you start hitting most of those, now run the sporting clays range again, but start from a “sporting position” where you have to shoulder the gun only after you see the clay flying…and have someone pull at random (you don’t know which side is going or when). That is your closest scenario to a true hunting scenario you are going to get at a range. Now… if you can break most of the clays in that scenario… you can start considering dropping gauge. I would bet my house that there a very few people who can run a sporting clays range in that scenario with anything less than a 12 or 20 on this forum. And those that can, have spent a ton of time and effort training.

 

[bonepoint]

I hunt a lot more upland game than big game and have used a 20 ga o/u exclusively for the past 15 years. I have never felt "under-gunned" on chukar, pheasant, huns, blue grouse, etc. The only time I have felt I needed more gun was on sage grouse. Those bastards are BIG. I do pull out the 12 for the occasional waterfowl hunt.

The differences between hunting with the 12?
- I do pass up the "hail marrys" I used to try with the 12. I reload for both and this is the difference between 1300 FPS vs. 1550 FPS.
- On the flip side, when I hunt with buddies using a 12, I make sure we keep our birds separate during cleaning. On average, the birds shot with the 12s are way more shot up. The 12 over-penetrates a lot, too. Ideal penetration is pellets into the vitals, not knocking them all the way through and driving guts through the bird.
- Lighter, smaller gun, easier for to pack around for chukar. The Browning Cynergy 20 has a very slip profile that I can pack with one hand (downhill hand), which is a nice advantage.
- No, the 20 ga double is not as effective as killing, but I enjoy the challenge. I would change to a 28 ga if I didn't have to buy the setup for a 3rd reloader.

 

[omicron1792]

Allot of info here.... but no one should be recommending a new hunter to get a .410 for wingshooting. You will be set up for failure. Turkeys with tungsten where you are aiming... yes, but not wingshooting.

The "small caliber philosophy" only applies to weapons that you "aim". You do not aim a shotgun in a wingshooting scenario. It is an instinctual swing shot that takes practice to master. A 12 gauge gives you the largest shot string ie. the most forgiveness in your shot. It also will put the most pellets on target for a cleaner kill. If you could make every shot perfectly, yes, you could use a .410 for everything. But you can't.... and it will take years of dedicated practice to get that good. Very few experienced hunters use .410 for wingshooting. They may go to say a 28 gauge for some game, but even then the person that does that will have dozens of years of experience under their belt.

For lead shooting only, you could get a 20 gauge, as you can use denser smaller shot. But you've already mentioned waterfowl which requires less dense steel shot (you will not be shooting any other non tox shot at waterfowl unless you are ok spending north of $200 in ammo in a morning hunt alone).

The quintessential, do-it-all shotgun for an average sized man should be a 12 gauge. Once you practice enough to start getting clean kills on almost every shot you make (which will take years), then you can consider dropping gauge. Or.... you can just use lighter loads in the 12 gauge....

Sounds a whole lot like “the quintessential, do it all rifle for an average sized man should be a 30-06….

 

[Fowl Play]

Was pointed out to me years ago that the center of the pattern of a 410 is in the same place as it is with a 12ga....

I mean, if you want to make that argument.... so does a pellet rifle... there's a major element of skill you are leaving out. Especially for a new hunter.

Sounds a whole lot like “the quintessential, do it all rifle for an average sized man should be a 30-06….

I have said rifles and shotguns are not equivalent in this argument. And that should be obvious. In your posts it is very apparent that you hunt waterfowl and other game that require non-tox very infrequently and use TSS for it. If you hunted waterfowl 50 times a year would your advice on gauge selection be different? If you had to take TSS/Bismuth etc. out of the equation for costs what would your advice be? The poster has never shot a shotgun in his life. Are you suggesting he pick up a gun that requires very expensive shot to effectively practice with?

 

[Steve300xcw]

I mean, if you want to make that argument.... so does a pellet rifle... there's a major element of skill you are leaving out. Especially for a new hunter.

Fair enough. That was pointed out to me after I got my ass smoked by a half paralyzed guy with a 410 The guy did make a valid point though.

I still do not see a 20ga as a handicap. The 28's an 410's.. yea I can see needing to be dialed in do do much good with one.

 

[Speaks]

You see a lot of this in the upland community with folks gravitating toward sub gauges and particularly the 28. While casual hunters likely favor the 12 you see a lot of serious old guys drooling over 28s.

Myself I tend to like 20 for most things (though I nostalgically carry some sxs 16s). 20s weigh less, are more pleasant to shoot, and do what I need in nearly all circumstances. If I was focused on pheasant out went I might opt for 12.

I have seen no advantage going to 28 personally, weight of the gun is often nearly the same, any additional recoil reduction does not seem to help me, and there is a real difference in ability to bring down birds (both clays and real) for me at least.

I do prefer lower velocity and standard payload rounds vs high velocity and overfilled.

 

[Macintosh]

20 ga probably really only becomes a legit handicap if you are talking about big shot--steel shot plus geese and big ducks. A person who is really good at decoying and calling, maybe its not a handicap at all. For a guy like me that makes "wounded cow" noises with a goose call...it might be a bit more of a handicap.

This is all why people have multiple shotguns btw. They are like golf clubs or fishing rods. It's hard to hit a golf ball 300 yards with a putter, and it's hard to throw a musky streamer into a 20mph wind with a 3-weight rod. But a beginner asking for advice or just trying to understand gets feedback from people whoare really "into" shotguns, and therefore gets "specialty answers".

 

[Weldor]

View attachment 896449View attachment 896457
It’s the only way….

Nice set-up, How do the crimps hold up? That's the reason I went with the 28, $9-15 a box vs $20 plus on 410.

 

[ianpadron]

I've hunted all birds exclusively with 20s and 28s the past 2 seasons. They're lighter, handle better, recoil less, aren't as loud etc.

The new TSS and other heavier than lead loads are the match bullets of the shotgun world, a 410 with #9 TSS will do what a 12 gauge with #5 lead will, similar to a 77 tmk vs a 180 monolithic.

For me, a good 20 is a more effective killer of birds, 28 almost as good.

 

[Weldor]

I ran a 20 for years, Then noticed a good article on shotgun felt recoil. A light 20 will hit harder than a 12 according to the article. Did my own experiment during dove season, both 20 and 12 were 1 oz. 8# . Browning double auto 12 and a Churchill Gobbler 20. The 12 seemed easier on the cheek and shoulder after a few 100 rounds. Plus my thumb likes the side loader better than jambing the end of it on the 20. JMHO. I really like the 28 for doves , but I have to pick my shots carefully. Not a lot of lead out of that one.

 

[WRO]

A viable pattern is not a reflection of amount of shot, it’s restriction to volume of shot. Some of the best patterning gauges are 28ga bores, regardless of shot material

Just because you have a larger volume of shot doesn’t mean it will pattern as well. There are mountains of testing and data available to support it.

With that said TSS is a waste of money in 20 and 12, there is a diminishing ROI, especially if lead is usable. Again if you hand load bulk TSS bought overseas it’s very affordable per shell, but it is an upfront investment.

At 50.00 a pound for at most a box of shells, it doesn’t seem affordable.

Most competitors shoot 12 gauges.


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[Macintosh]

@Weldor that says more about the gun than the gauge. My 20ga hunting gun weighs 5 3/4lb--it's about like a 28ga that happens to shoot 20ga ammo, and it's what I think is the "perfect" gun for its main purpose. But it's a terrible gun for sporting clays or duck hunting. My 20ga clays gun, before I sold it, weighed almost 9lb. Wildly different recoil on those two 20ga guns. I sold a 6lb 12ga--it was too similar to my 20 and didnt carry as well, and recoil for anything where I actually needed a 12 was punishing, but it was a cool gun. I had a cool old 16ga double I restocked to fit me, that was a fun gun, it was sort of like carrying a 20ga that shot light 12ga shells. I still have a 9lb 12ga sxs sporting clays gun, a 7 1/2lb 12ga double, an 8lb semiauto and an 8 1/2lb 12ga pump. On paper they all shoot the same ammo, but each is tailored for a specific purpose to find the best combination of weight, carryability, handling and ability to somewhat comfortably deal with the recoil of the load I typically shoot for that purpose. My 12ga clays gun with the loads I generally shoot in it recoils SUBSTANTIALLY less than my 20ga hunting gun.
I say all that simply to point out that a lot of us responding are "into" shotguns and have relatively specialized guns BECAUSE we have multiple guns. I would not really suggest most of my shotguns as being good all-arounders though.

 

[FLS]

You don’t understand the small caliber philosophy. Nobody is saying a 12 gauge with tss isn’t going to be devastating on any American game bird. The small for caliber philosophy is about using a smaller caliber gun with less recoil with the implementation of modern projectiles, and I think everyone agrees that’s tss in shotguns. Pattern density is adequate because you maintain lethality (penetration) at distance with much smaller shot. Duck hunters like myself are crushing mallards with 1/2 oz of TSS 10’s. This allows a shooter to maintain equal lethality with their larger bore counterparts firing traditional projectiles (steel 3’s in a 12 gauge). The whole point is not to compare “apples to apples” as you call it. It’s to maintain lethality while decreasing recoil; I.e. tss in a 410 being as lethal if not more than larger steel shot at a given range.

You may be “crushing” birds landing in a pothole or floating in to your decoys at 15-20 yds. But unless you’re a wing shooting savant, there is no way in hell your “crushing” passing birds with a 410 or 28.

 

[cuerro viejo]

At 50.00 a pound for at most a box of shells, it doesn’t seem affordable.

Most competitors shoot 12 gauges.


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I’d shoot the cheapest reloaded shells too if I shot a pallet of shells a year just in competition and not including training.

Those that are serious on the small gauge buy bulk out of China.